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Electoral reform: Nick Clegg takes a major gamble

If Clegg were to lose his referendum, he would acquire huge party management problems at a time when Lib-Con cuts would be biting deep into public services and jobs

British Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg
Nick Clegg faces problems if he loses his referendum on electoral reform. Photograph: Dani Pozo/AFP/Getty Images

So it looks as though we are going to get our promised referendum on electoral reform – and the alternative vote (AV) model – early after all.

Nick Clegg has persuaded David Cameron to aim for 6 May, Patrick Wintour and Allegra Stratton report this morning in a story that has been widely followed up.

This is a major gamble all round. Clegg, who turned up at the Spectator magazine's summer party with Cameron looking rather more uneasy than Dave among the piranhas, is also expected to announce a boundary shake-up to try and make constituencies more equal – ie fairer to the Tories.

If this was easy it would have been done by now, but voters selfishly insist on getting on with their own lives and moving jobs/homes without regard to constituency boundaries. The more they move from city to suburb and beyond, the more Conservative votes pile up to no additional purpose.

This is what electoral reform is supposed to be about, making "every vote count" and giving micro-parties a better chance of winning seats than they have under the winner take all, first past the post system we have always used in Britain, since the days when Grampound, in Cornwall, had just five electors.

But one voter's new "fairness" will deliver unfairness for someone else. Why, for instance, is it fairer that centrist third parties like the Lib Dems should always be in a bigger party's coalition, here and across Europe?

Systems are all imperfect and are expected to deliver stable government as well as notional fairness. Sam Smith demonstrates some of the flaws with AV here – swapping second preferences between Labour and Lib Dems would be too unfair to the Tories.

He comes up with an "alternative AMS" (additional member system) designed to buttress stable government by allowing majority party rule instead of permanent coalition.

I've never regarded PR voting – AV is not PR, but the Electoral Reform Society, historically devoted to the single transferable vote (STV), is backing Clegg – as a panacea. I was puzzled last year when some people suggested it would help cure such malaise as dubious expenses claims by MPs.

But even I can see that, as fewer people vote for the two main parties – two thirds only on 6 May – then fragmented loyalties may require the voting system to embrace this new reality. Is AV the answer? Probably not, but it weakens the simplicity and legitimacy of first past the post, which is what reformers want. Would it damage Labour or the Tories most? We can't confidently say.

Of course, we are racing ahead of ourselves here. As Wintour and Stratton point out, it is by no means clear that the Clegg bill will get through the Commons, let alone the Lords.

It's not being presented as a party matter, so Tory and Labour MPs will feel free to oppose it, whatever their leaders tell or urge them to do.

Lots don't like AV for reasons fair and foul. Ditto their feelings towards the Lib Dems. Irritation with their funny ways – high-minded and hypocritical opportunists is how critics have tended to view them – is deepening into hostility. It does rankle Tory also-rans to see Lib Dems holding ministerial jobs they'd hoped to have themselves.

On the Labour side, wannabe party leader Andy Burnham today dismisses voting reform as "a kind of fringe pursuit for Guardian-reading classes" – cruel but probably fair – while Ed Miliband promises to lead Labour in favour of a yes vote on AV if he wins. Backbenchers on both sides are busy plotting campaigns for a no vote.

If Clegg were to lose his referendum, he would acquire huge party management problems among his MPs and activists at a time when the Lib-Con cuts would be biting deep into public services and jobs. Even if he wins, Cameron might be able to hold the promised 2015 election under FPTP and the current boundaries.

If we are locked in deepening economic crisis – and we may well be – it may all look a bit frivolous, as the AV deal offered by the Labour minority government to Lloyd George's Liberals did in 1931. It's all a gamble, as life so often is.

Most people I chatted with at the Spectator party – people of all parties – agree that the bulk of the risk lies with Clegg. If the coalition were to collapse under the strain, Cameron could go to the country saying: "Look, I did my best with these Lib Dems, but they're just not reliable partners."

Unless the country turns sharply to the left – not likely? – he'd probably get his majority. Yes? As Martin Kettle points out today, these are tough times for European social democrats despite the recession.

So when the referendum comes, I promise to be open-minded, though wary of panaceas and acutely aware that some of electoral reform's doughtier champions have punted daft panaceas before and not apologised when they went pear-shaped. If you want to be mean (I'm sure you don't) we could include Clegg's Value Your Freedom website, which crashed hours after being launched yesterday to solicit voters' ideas for better governance.

All sorts of ideas – sweet, beastly and plain mad – had poured into the site, lots of them seeking repeal of repressive laws against drugs, hunting, murder and the right to marry or civil-partner one's horse.

That lovable old Guardian hippie, Duncan Campbell, has written a piece here about calls for drug law liberalisation, which is, I suspect, not what the decidedly un-hippie Clegg has in mind. One man's freedom is another man's fairness, dependent on your point of view.

The other still-awaited apology from the pro-PR lobby is over British membership of the euro. I know it's not an issue at present – not for us, it isn't – but I can't think of anyone among my friends and acquaintances, or politicians who isn't in favour of both (or against both), though I'm sure there must be some.

But the fact is they told us we'd be worse off outside the eurozone (we weren't) and ignored plentiful warnings that you can't easily run a currency union without much stronger political controls over member states economies, as the Germans are belatedly discovering. Plenty knew but were ignored.

I don't think I've read a major speech by a pro-euro player – not from Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson, Ken Clarke, Clegg or Chris Huhne – explaining why they were wrong, or weren't wrong – because that would be interesting, too.


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  • notPandora notPandora

    2 Jul 2010, 11:11AM

    Electoral reform is completely pointless unless we get some honest politicians to choose from.

    Anyone who votes for AV in the referendum will be helping Clegg, chief of the nasty Yellow Gnomes, to vindicate his despicable hypocrisy.

    Electoral reform? Let's start by dumping all MPs that got into Parliament under false pretences.

    DOWN WITH YELLOW GNOMES EVERYWHERE!

    VOTE NO to AV

  • Cuse Cuse

    2 Jul 2010, 11:16AM

    Gamble for Clegg?

    He's already taken that Michael in his bare-faced love-in with Dave. Initial signs are the biting on his @rse is only just starting.

    Frankly, if this gets through the Commons I'd be surprised. The public don't care enough to make it something worth investing time in understanding.

    The Coalition is ready to crack. I for one wouldn't lift a single finger to repair it.

  • AmberStar AmberStar

    2 Jul 2010, 11:21AM

    If the coalition were to collapse under the strain, Cameron could go to the country saying: "Look, I did my best with these Lib Dems, but they're just not reliable partners."

    He won't because he'd lose.

  • card card

    2 Jul 2010, 11:30AM

    The other still-awaited apology from the pro-PR lobby is over British membership of the euro. I know it's not an issue at present – not for us, it isn't – but I can't think of anyone among my friends and acquaintances, or politicians who isn't in favour of both (or against both), though I'm sure there must be.

    Such prejudiced bollocks - if you are 'sure there must be', why make this dishonest link in the first place? Why on earth should people who are in favour of PR apologise for issues to do with the Euro?

    Additionally, you don't mention that if the bill failed to make it through Parliament, the Lib Dems would probably pull out of the coalition (under pressure from their party members). Don't you think this is a big risk for Cameron? He's won some goodwill for trying to make the coalition work, but if it fails its first major test (in terms of internal disagreement) his leadership credentials take a major knock. Labour have recovered from the 28-29% they polled in May and could win more seats than the Tories if there was an election tomorrow - the 'rebalancing of seats' won't take place any time soon.

    If you want a 'daft panacea' in the electoral reform world, look no further than the absurd article from Sam Smith - proposing something similar to what Mussolini introduced in the 1920s. The very, very obvious objection to his plan is: why have PR if you then include bonus seats to remove the effect that it has on electoral arithmetic?

  • zavaell zavaell

    2 Jul 2010, 11:37AM

    Is Michael White a bit of a closet reactionary? Perhaps he has been wined and dined around Westminster just a little bit too much and likes his matey atmosphere: coalitions would be too demanding for him. For the record, our parliamentary system stinks.

  • tish tish

    2 Jul 2010, 11:42AM

    If the LibDems lose this referendum they will implode. It's fairly obvious that the SDP wing of the party is only putting up with the coallition becouse they know it is their one chance to get a little bit of electoral reform, not the full blooded PR they want but at least a slight improvement. If Clegg fails to deliver this then he will be finished as leader.

    I would also say it is just as important for Cameron to get a yes vote, if the LibDems tear each other to pieces and quit the coallition then he will be at the mercy of his right wing backbenchers, most of who hate him and are looking for an excuse to stab him in the back and replace him with a David Davis or a Liam Fox instead. That's why I wouldn't be at all suprised to see Cameron campaign for a yes vote personally, even if most of his party oppose it.

  • Cuse Cuse

    2 Jul 2010, 11:43AM

    For the record, our parliamentary system stinks.

    How can you say that zavaell when we get such super-duper-fair government like the ConDem Coalition? I mean Golly - we even got our bestest ever un-elected Prime Minister in Dave Cameron out of it, 'voted in' on a manifesto he ditched as soon as he was in power!

    Really, We're All in this Together!

  • JKhardie JKhardie

    2 Jul 2010, 11:43AM

    I hva ebeen a supporter of electoral reform since my teenage years. I am not a big fan of first past the post, however if this vote ever takes place, an it is a big IF at present as parliment may vote this down, then I will vote against it and would encourage others to do the same. My reasons are simple:

    1. I feel that a no vote would hasten an end to this illigitmate executive.
    2. The Troies are trying to bundle this with measure to gerimnader the constituencies to their advantage.

    This is how they will try to "sttch" together the coalitions support for this proposal.. It has nothing to do with democracy or the best interests of the public. This is all about what is best for the Tories & Nick Clegg.

  • stevecov stevecov

    2 Jul 2010, 11:52AM

    Clegg's difficulty is that the Lib Dems have always turned up their noses at the offer of AV, so it's hard to see how he can now extol AV as equivalent to a genuinely proportional system.

    Will his party even campaign wholeheartedly for it, or prefer to hold out for PR?

    I agree that it's difficult to see how the Lib Dems can hold together as a party if the referendum is lost, and if Labour's new leader were to make more liberal noises on civil liberties and PR, could we see Lib Dems crossing the floor? It's already painfully clear that some LDs are sickened by their coalition: do you get the sense that any of them are biding their time ready to cause Clegg maximum damage?

    I'd be interested to read your thoughts on this, Michael...

  • NougatSlider NougatSlider

    2 Jul 2010, 11:53AM

    I've always regarded PR voting – AV is not PR, but the Electoral Reform Society, historically devoted to the single transferable vote (STV) is backing Clegg – as a panacea.

    When you say 'always' above, don't you mean 'never'?

  • KingCnutCase KingCnutCase

    2 Jul 2010, 12:00PM

    @tish

    That's why I wouldn't be at all suprised to see Cameron campaign for a yes vote personally, even if most of his party oppose it.

    Cameron has already said he will campaign against it.

    The AV'ers have no hope of getting this through.

    Those on the left who want to punish the Lib Dems for the coalition will vote against it. Most Tories will vote against it. And the turnout will be pathetically small.

  • DBIV DBIV

    2 Jul 2010, 12:03PM

    Grampound never had as few as five electors. In fact Grampound's problem was the reverse - it had a very wide franchise, so even the working class had the vote, and in the early 19th century they were cut out of the political process. So they sold their votes openly.

    If you want an example of a small borough in the pre-reform period how about Gatton in Surrey, where there was a contested election in 1801 won by 1 vote to nil on a 100% turnout. Henry Stooks Smith tells an apocryphal story about the circumstances but the real story is in the History of Parliament. (Old Sarum in Wiltshire had eight voters, all nominated by the borough's proprietor)

  • Gelion Gelion

    2 Jul 2010, 12:13PM

    The Lib Dems will be a spent force by the next election regardless, there is only so much hypocrisy that protest voters can take.

    An AV - no-one really wants this. It is a fudge, the LIb Dems wanted an actual proportional system, the Tories do not want to change, and I bet most Labour backbenchers don't either.

    I am willing to bet that at the next general election, and any forth coming by-elections, the Lib Dems will be battered.

  • aquaist aquaist

    2 Jul 2010, 12:19PM

    As AV was in the Labour manifesto and as the LibDems see it as a start towards discussing PR, surely it will go through.
    I don't think many Labour voters will be hypocritical enough to suggest LibDems are throwing away principles and then vote against AV.

  • republish republish

    2 Jul 2010, 12:24PM

    1. I feel that a no vote would hasten an end to this illigitmate executive.
    2. The Troies are trying to bundle this with measure to gerimnader the constituencies to their advantage

    Yes, I agree, but these are short-term considerations. Looking at the bigger picture, this referendum, if it happens, is going to be the only chance we get to have electoral reform.
    If we don't take it the chance won't come along again.

  • wooly2708 wooly2708

    2 Jul 2010, 12:27PM

    One question I'd like to raise is, presuming the outcome is a "yes" vote, whether this will just affect elections to the House Of Commons or also other tiers using first-past-the-post including parish councils, local authorities and the constituency members in the devolved assemblies? And what about mayoral elections?

  • Chriswr Chriswr

    2 Jul 2010, 12:28PM

    If the AV referendum results in a 'no' vote then the colaition will be in trouble. Why would Liberals stick with it once the cuts start to bite? Many Lib Dems would prefer to go back to principled opposition and Clegg would probably be ditched. At the very least Liberals would demand much more input into economic policy as the price for keeping the coalition going. That would probably cause many Tories to rebel.

    Cameron knows this so he won't actually want the referendum to fail, especially if their poll ratings are low due to the cuts. So any campaigning against AV will be half-hearted at best.

    Can Labour really campaign against AV? Hard to imagine what their argument would be. But they would like a 'no' vote so they will try to make it a referendum on the coalition.

    This is one reason why we have such an early referendum - Cameron is hoping that the government will still be reasonably popular and the new Labour leader won't have had time to establish himself. So the referendum is more likely to pass and if it fails and the coalition collapses the Tories have more chance of winning a new election on their own.

  • stevecov stevecov

    2 Jul 2010, 12:37PM

    aquaist:

    As AV was in the Labour manifesto and as the LibDems see it as a start towards discussing PR, surely it will go through.
    I don't think many Labour voters will be hypocritical enough to suggest LibDems are throwing away principles and then vote against AV.

    I am a Labour voter, and I oppose AV because I don't think it's proportional enough. According to the LDs over very many years, neither do they.

    But our voting system is not the overwhelming issue which determines how I vote. I have no problem in voting for a Labour manifesto which contained a single pledge about a policy I don't support, and then voting No in a referendum to enact that pledge.

    The trouble for the LDs is that they've argued over and over for a proportional voting system, and have indeed thrown away that principle at the first whiff of an opportunity to deliver on it.

    So at the moment, I am minded to vote against AV because a Yes vote will give us an even less proportional system than the one we already have. And after it's been introduced, we'll have to wait another few centuries before we get another chance for change.

  • sunnychina sunnychina

    2 Jul 2010, 12:45PM

    Why is it a big Gamble? Old Gordy from Kircaldly and his Labour party put it forward in the dying days of the last parliament, (after fighting it for 13 years), purely for some possible electoral gain even though many of his own party are opposed. Now we have some commitment and I can see many in the labour party now fighting against AV+ even though it was in their manifesto.

  • tish tish

    2 Jul 2010, 1:04PM

    @KingCnutCase

    "Cameron has already said he will campaign against it."

    So I see. I'm really suprised, I thought he'd said previously that he would abstain. Maybe he doesn't really see this coallition lasting anyway.

  • Reddit Reddit

    2 Jul 2010, 1:07PM

    I'm a Labour voter and a strong supporter of electoral reform for the UK. But I am a strong opponent of AV. There ain't nothing proportional about it at all. If UK voters want greater representation of their vote in parliament then AV is just as cack as the archaic FPTP. We went through this same debate in my native New Zealand around 17 years ago. When that happened instead of the public being told what the alternative system should be they were actually given two referendums. The first was to vote for 3 prefered voting systems from a list of about 6 or 7 (I can't rightly remember). Each system was explained by its proponents through national media campaigns. The for's and againsts were well represented for each. The second stage was to vote on a binding referendum for the prefered system from the final shortlist. MMP was voted for by the NZ public. While it wasn't and probably still isn't everyones cup of tea the electorate were given the chance to vote on it. If MMP wasn't their preference they had the chance to vote for something else. Nick Clegg often harps on about choice but won't give the UK one on alternatives on electoral reform apart from AV even though he himself is a fan of STV. Weak trade off by the sound of it.
    Also this unfounded fear from Labour, and the more so the Tories, that British democracy will simply collapse or be thrown into turmoil is just plain scaremongering. New Zealand voters were recently polled for their opinions on electoral reform and if they would rather return to FPTP. It was a resounding "No". However I just hope this isn't going to be used by the Tories as a diversion while they push through their highly undemocratic redrawing of the current electoral boundaries. This will potentially wipe out up to 40 Labour seats in the Commons at future elections. Gerrymandering at its worst.

  • YankJack YankJack

    2 Jul 2010, 1:08PM

    Quote from article:
    But one voter's new "fairness" will deliver unfairness for someone else.

    The same thing could have been said of voters in a one party state like the former Soviet Union. Some voters would benefit from the status quo; other voters would want greater political choice. However; in the long run, the majority of the population benefits from greater political power, and decreasing wasted votes in three way or greater contests, increases the voters power.

  • sproutboy sproutboy

    2 Jul 2010, 1:23PM

    I know it would be deeply disappointing to political journalists, but maybe Cameron and Clegg will come to the grown-up understanding that they hold opposing views on electoral reform, that they have the right to express those views in a referendum on electoral reform, and that they are happy to abide by whatever the British electorate decide at that referendum and get back to governing the country in a responsible way.

    Just a thought.

  • MickGJ MickGJ

    2 Jul 2010, 1:25PM

    If the coalition were to collapse under the strain, Cameron could go to the country saying: "Look, I did my best with these Lib Dems, but they're just not reliable partners."

    He won't because he'd lose.

    At current poll ratings he'd just about scrape a majority with over 40% of the vote. If he then succeeded in getting more equal-sized constituencies he'd be home free for a generation.

  • toolmaker toolmaker

    2 Jul 2010, 1:47PM

    Technical question. Under AV are we required to vote for all candidates in order of preference? If so it's undemocratic and I wouldn't vote as I won't vote for any fascist or similar. If not required to do so what happens when we all only vote for our preferred candidate or perhaps one other in an election with more than two candidates and no one gets 50% or more of the vote? We are then back to first past the post are we not. Perhaps one way of ensuring AV doesn't work!!

  • DesB3rd DesB3rd

    2 Jul 2010, 1:49PM

    Those who ideologically favour a more repressentative means of vote allocation but will vote "no" to AV really need a little introspection. Those who are simply partisan Labour/Tory supports who openly recognise that FPTP favours their political interests while not exactly high minded are at least not fooling themselves.

    Reform will be back-burnered for far longer if it the first steps are rejected outright; but by going to AV we move "one click on the rachet" & there is no going back.

  • Drypoint Drypoint

    2 Jul 2010, 2:25PM

    Why are some LibDems so incensed that they're not getting everything they wanted? They only got a fifth of the vote - they're lucky to hold the balance of power and to have some influence at last. This is what PR means.

    As for Labour supporters moralizing about anything - please be quiet for a few years and maybe the electorate will forget what you've done.

  • Antichthon Antichthon

    2 Jul 2010, 2:28PM

    @toolmaker: if you just want to vote once, just place a 1 against your preference.

    The advantage of AV for STV supporters is that the voting procedure is exactly the same. To move to STV, you just merge a number of constituencies and make a larger multi-member one.

    As a left-of-centre LibDem supporter, I'm very uneasy about the coalition but not really sure what else they could have done, given that coalitions are going to be very common under electoral reform. If you're only going to form a coalition with Labour, you might as well be Labour.

    I think a LibDem split is likely in the future, but I also think true electoral reform will lead to splits in the other two parties as well. There are currently many mini-parties being held together by FPTP.

  • CasparDavidFriedrich CasparDavidFriedrich

    2 Jul 2010, 2:30PM

    Why, for instance, is it fairer that centrist third parties like the Lib Dems should always be in a bigger party's coalition, here and across Europe?

    Slightly surreal question given that:

    (1) They're not. I can't offhand think of any such party that has always been in coalition, unless you can correct me.

    (2) Er if they are more often the preferred partner might that just be because both the left and right wing parties find them more appealing than working with their opposites? Germany has had two periods of left-right coalitions in the past 45 years. Neither lasted that long for fairly obvious reasons.

    The flipside to being in the centre is that you exercise less influence to change things. And also it limits your electoral appeal.

    Otherwise you might complain why someone who is prepared to listed to both Mahler and Meatloaf gets invited to more concerts than someone who will only ever countenance Heavy Metal....

  • CliveTring CliveTring

    2 Jul 2010, 2:38PM

    This is what electoral reform is supposed to be about, making "every vote count" and giving micro-parties a better chance of winning seats than they have under the winner take all, first past the post system we have always used in Britain, since the days when Grampound, in Cornwall, had just five electors.

    A parliamentary historian writes:

    Not so. Grampound was disfranchised in 1821 for corruption. At the time it - and most other boroughs and counties in England - were two-member seats, and every voter had two votes. The system was broadly first-and-second past the post until 1885, when equal (or, in practice, not so equal) electoral districts and single members came in.

    So FPTP is not rooted in deepest antiquity, any more than the pound is as a unit of currency.

    In many two member seats, such was the expense of elections that compromises were often reached, with a Whig/Liberal and Tory returned unopposed. Even though no votes were actually cast in such 'elections', it may be argued that this was more faithfully representative of voter opinion than is the post 1885 system, under which more than half of the electors in a given constituency can easily find themselves represented by a single MP whose views they detest. It really is time for a change.

  • CasparDavidFriedrich CasparDavidFriedrich

    2 Jul 2010, 2:52PM

    @toolmaker

    Technical question. Under AV are we required to vote for all candidates in order of preference? If so it's undemocratic and I wouldn't vote as I won't vote for any fascist or similar. If not required to do so what happens when we all only vote for our preferred candidate or perhaps one other in an election with more than two candidates and no one gets 50% or more of the vote? We are then back to first past the post are we not. Perhaps one way of ensuring AV doesn't work

    !!

    Under most implementations you can number as many or as few candidates as you want. Certainly that is what I would expect.

    Of course if you only give a first preference then your vote won't count if your candidate gets eliminated. I don't see how you can complain about this any more than you can complain if you didn't urn up to the polling station. (Won't stop a few people trying no doubt)

  • MikeWhitereplies MikeWhitereplies

    2 Jul 2010, 4:09PM

    Staff Staff

    Friends in the Ed Miliband camp make a useful correction when they remind me that EM did not say he would LEAD Labour in support of AV. what he said was:

    "I strongly support the case for introducing the Alternative Vote, to ensure greater fairness for voters and greater legitimacy for our MPs in Westminster. Whenever the referendum takes place, I will campaign with other supporters across the political spectrum for this important change."

  • labourpartysuicide labourpartysuicide

    2 Jul 2010, 4:14PM

    I'm all for electoral reform if it ensures that parliament is truly more representative of the views of the wider population.
    But how on earth is Clegg ever going to be effective again in convincing anyone that he cares about representing the views of voters? He's just proven beyond any doubt that he's a politician who completely disregards the voters as soon as he's in power.
    Clegg trying to sell electoral reform to further democracy, to a population he's just double-crossed, will only highlight how much of a cynical shameless untrustworthy hypocrite he is.

  • fibmac70 fibmac70

    2 Jul 2010, 4:54PM

    @labourpartysuicide
    2 Jul 2010, 4:14PM

    I'm all for electoral reform if it ensures that parliament is truly more representative of the views of the wider population.

    If Nic Clegg's aunt were surgically corrected
    It would leave his uncle very dejected..
    Too many ifs,gentlemen, will spoil the soup
    Let's trust the voters, shall we ?! and hope!

  • Chriswr Chriswr

    2 Jul 2010, 5:13PM

    @labourpartysuicide

    But how on earth is Clegg ever going to be effective again in convincing anyone that he cares about representing the views of voters? He's just proven beyond any doubt that he's a politician who completely disregards the voters as soon as he's in power.
    Clegg trying to sell electoral reform to further democracy, to a population he's just double-crossed, will only highlight how much of a cynical shameless untrustworthy hypocrite he is.

    I don't really understand any of that. How has Clegg double-crossed anyone or disregarded the people who voted for him? Did he say he would refuse to form a coalition? Everyone would have laughed at him if he had.

    Every Lib Dem voter surely knew that the party were not going to form a government on their own and would merely try to implement as many of their policies as they could via a coalition with one of the two major parties. And it was clear from what Clegg said in the election campaign that a coalition with the Tories was very much a possibility.

  • oberboyd oberboyd

    2 Jul 2010, 5:48PM

    Why, for instance, is it fairer that centrist third parties like the Lib Dems should always be in a bigger party's coalition, here and across Europe?

    I think this is the objection to PR systems that used to be trotted out with particular reference to the FDP in Germany, who were almost permanently in govermnent. It doesn't seem to be true in the German context any more: no one smaller party has been part of successive federal govermnents since the days of Kohl. There is no reason why it should be true in the UK either under a reformed electoral system - no reason why we couldn't have, say, a Lab-Green coalition if the votes and the political will was there.

    Of course AV wouldn't necessarily make coalition much more likely. It is not proportional and might just as well shore up bigger-party votes overall. It's not great and I would rather have the option of AV+ or STV. But we are where we are. Basically, there is no political prospect of fuller reform coming any time soon. Its delivery would require a degree of cross-party consensus which would take years to build (look at the work that went into devolution with the Scottish Constitutional Convention). We are years away from that, sadly. And if the AV referendum fails (which must surely be quite likely), then it's over for a generation.

    So: if you support proper reform, support the AV referendum and keep the issue alive. But you also need to keep pushing for full reform - and especially push the Labour party to convert to it.

    And those Labour supporters who don't support reform and who moan about Tories changing constituency boundaries should consider whether it's actually sensible as a long-term political strategy to be relying on an electoral system which massively exaggerates their support. Is that actually a sustainable position?

  • Chriswr Chriswr

    2 Jul 2010, 6:21PM

    Another plus point for AV is that it allows de facto coalitions to be established before the election (rather than sprung on voters afterwards).

    Separate parties can't fight the election as a coalition without effectively merging their organisations (like the Liberal/SDP alliance ended up doing). But under AV potential coalition partners could urge their supporters to make the other party their second choice. Voters don't have to take that advice but if they do they get to vote for both their preferred party and (if that party come third locally) get a second vote for their potential coalition partner. You have all the benefits of an electoral pact without the disadvantages.

  • labourpartysuicide labourpartysuicide

    2 Jul 2010, 10:35PM

    Chriswr
    How has Clegg double-crossed anyone or disregarded the people who voted for him?

    Seven weeks ago Clegg was winning votes by campaigning against a Conservative rise in VAT because he said it would be unfair and hit the poorest hardest. Having won votes on that basis he then double-crossed voters by supporting a Conservative chancellor who will raise VAT. Clegg and his party's votes will ensure that the VAT rise goes through.
    The VAT rise isn't an academic Westminster debating point. It is an unfair and regressive tax rise that will hit the poorest hardest.
    Faith in politicians has taken a real battering in recent years especially in light of the expenses scandal. Perhaps you have already forgotten but the public don't trust politicians anymore. Clegg shamelessly defrauded the voters seven weeks ago in that climate.
    If you are a Liberal Democrat you are fooling yourself if you believe that Clegg will ever be forgiven for his treachery.
    Everything he touches is now tainted.

  • johnccstevens johnccstevens

    3 Jul 2010, 1:53AM

    I am pro euro but anti AV. I would be delighted to explain to Michael White why the current market crisis of the euro zone was expected by all those, who, like myself, view the process of economic and monetary union as part of the broader development of greater political union in Europe. Whether what emerges to re-inforce the fiscal base of the single currency, over the next couple of years, is more on the French Keynesian or, as I hope, the German Monetarist model, the eurozone will have been pushed across a crucial threshold into genuine international politics. The remarkable discontinuity is in British politics. Whereas we had always sought to prevent the formation of an inner core that would exclude us, we are now acquiescing in exactly that. This is especially curious since every syllable of George Osborne's budget depends upon whether or not there is any growth in the eurozone: growth that may only come by a further devaluation of the euro against the dollar, and thus also, to a degree against sterling.

  • clivejw clivejw

    3 Jul 2010, 5:45AM

    Which countries use AV? Australia, and, er... Fiji, and, er...the Irish presidential elections, the London mayoral elections, and the Canadian wheat board.

    Not a lot of evidence that it produces fairer results, and this referendum, which will be lost along with anything else Clegg backs, was not worth the 2.5% on VAT. If Michael White is to be believed, no one really thinks it's any good in itself anyway -- it's only being touted in order to smash FPTP. So Clegg is gambling with people's livelihoods and prosperity for something he doesn't want anyway, meanwhile undermining the political stability of the UK. Vote this idiot out -- he would surely have to resign if he loses the referendum, which to my mind makes the choice very simple.

  • mpb645 mpb645

    3 Jul 2010, 4:34PM

    @clivejw

    " he would surely have to resign if he loses the referendum, which to my mind makes the choice very simple"

    Strange comment. PR in whatever form is more widely used than FPTP in lopsided constituencies and the future of the coalition government is in no way dependent on the outcome of the referendum. The only way back for the discredited Blair/Brownites may be to encourage a resounding YES vote to the proposal on the table come next May.

  • ritalinhatesme ritalinhatesme

    3 Jul 2010, 8:31PM

    Yes, notPandora, let's vote against AV. Because ossifying the political system exactly as it is right now is exactly the way to ensure that we completely renew our politics in this country.

    *sigh*

    If you can't think, don't speak. Or, for that matter, vote.

  • carren carren

    4 Jul 2010, 6:09AM

    Cameron is not to be trusted.

    The action by Clegg forming an alliance with the Tories was naivety in the extreme.

    Brown was right: 'This is no time for amateurs'.

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