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Re: Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
Hi chetan2u,

I chose option 1 for H

I cannot understand Option 2 for H

The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and European ancestry. The government grants certain special rights to Métis individuals. To receive these rights,

Condition 1 :an individual must self-identify as Métis and
Condition 2 :must not have self-identified only recently in order to receive these rights.
Condition 3 :The individual must also have Métis ancestry and
Condition 4: be accepted as Métis by a modern Métis community.
Condition 4a:Acceptance by a modern Métis community is shown only by long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities.

Option 2:
Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing participation in Métis political activities

One cannot self identify as Metis due to long standing participation in Metis Political Activity.
One is accepted as as Métis by a modern Métis community when one has long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities.

One can have a long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities but may not have Metis Ancestry

Whereas Option 1:

Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing Métis ancestry is logically falling in Condition 1 and Condition 3

Please guide
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Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
 <quote option=""chetan2u"">A Non-Math related with Difficulty level Hard from OG.</quote>­

Hey chetan2u Sajjad1994, how the answer of the 2nd Q ie N  is D option. So if we negate N we get - doesn't Has recent ancestry that is not Métis. Now, if someone doesn't have recent Non-metis ancestory then still how can we conclude that they will have long standing metis ancestory? They may have recent Metis ancenstory only. Furthurmore, the most important point,which is the acceptance by metis community, is fully missing here. Based upon only ancestory we cannot give the rights. We shd have acceptance from metis community as well. Pls explain the flaw in my reasoning and also what's the reasoning behind getting answer D?­­­­
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Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
I have a concern about the 2nd choice of OA: NOT having N "Has recent ancestry that is not Métis".

For example, If the individual has recent ancestry that is D (not Métis), then according to the condition, this person NOT having D could have recent ancestry that is E or Métis­­
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Re: Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
 
imRaj wrote:
 <quote option=""chetan2u"">A Non-Math related with Difficulty level Hard from OG.</quote>­

Hey chetan2u Sajjad1994, how the answer of the 2nd Q ie N  is D option. So if we negate N we get - doesn't Has recent ancestry that is not Métis. Now, if someone doesn't have recent Non-metis ancestory then still how can we conclude that they will have long standing metis ancestory? They may have recent Metis ancenstory only. Furthurmore, the most important point,which is the acceptance by metis community, is fully missing here. Based upon only ancestory we cannot give the rights. We shd have acceptance from metis community as well. Pls explain the flaw in my reasoning and also what's the reasoning behind getting answer D?­­­­

­imRaj
I agree with you that They may have (not must have) recent Metis ancenstory.

You miss the 1st option showing that they self-indentified Metis and were accepted by metis community due to long standing participation 
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Re: Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
Iwillget770 wrote:
Hi chetan2u,

I chose option 1 for H

I cannot understand Option 2 for H

The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and European ancestry. The government grants certain special rights to Métis individuals. To receive these rights,

Condition 1 :an individual must self-identify as Métis and
Condition 2 :must not have self-identified only recently in order to receive these rights.
Condition 3 :The individual must also have Métis ancestry and
Condition 4: be accepted as Métis by a modern Métis community.
Condition 4a:Acceptance by a modern Métis community is shown only by long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities.

Option 2:
Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing participation in Métis political activities

One cannot self identify as Metis due to long standing participation in Metis Political Activity.
One is accepted as as Métis by a modern Métis community when one has long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities.

One can have a long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities but may not have Metis Ancestry

Whereas Option 1:

Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing Métis ancestry is logically falling in Condition 1 and Condition 3

Please guide

­GMATNinja could you rescue us ? 
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Re: Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
 
Quote:

I chose option 1 for H

I cannot understand Option 2 for H

The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and European ancestry. The government grants certain special rights to Métis individuals. To receive these rights,

Condition 1 :an individual must self-identify as Métis and
Condition 2 :must not have self-identified only recently in order to receive these rights.
Condition 3 :The individual must also have Métis ancestry and
Condition 4: be accepted as Métis by a modern Métis community.
Condition 4a:Acceptance by a modern Métis community is shown only by long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities.

Option 2:
Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing participation in Métis political activities

One cannot self identify as Metis due to long standing participation in Metis Political Activity.
One is accepted as as Métis by a modern Métis community when one has long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities.

One can have a long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities but may not have Metis Ancestry

Whereas Option 1:

Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing Métis ancestry is logically falling in Condition 1 and Condition 3

Please guide

­Iwillget770 I also had similar doubt but I think the difference between the two options is because of condition 2. Option 1 says self identifies because of long standing Metis ancestory. Possibility he self identified quite recently. While in case of option 2, this person is self identified because of long standing participation in community, meaning he is in for long time. He didn't self identified quite recently. 
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Re: Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
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chetan2u wrote:
­
All Data Insight question: TPA [ Official Guide DI Review 2023-24] 

Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and European ancestry. The government grants certain special rights to Métis individuals. To receive these rights, an individual must self-identify as Métis and must not have self-identified only recently in order to receive these rights. The individual must also have Métis ancestry and be accepted as Métis by a modern Métis community. Acceptance by a modern Métis community is shown only by long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities.

In the table, select characteristics H and N, such that an individual having H and NOT having N would most clearly satisfy the legal advocate’s stated criterion for receiving the rights associated with Métis membership. Make only two selections, one in each column.
 

Necessary conditions to satisfy the criteria:

- An individual must have long ago self-identified as Métis
- The individual must also have Métis ancestry
- Must have long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities. (this shows acceptance in Metis community)


Question Stem: Select characteristics H and N, such that an individual having H and NOT having N would most clearly satisfy the legal advocate’s stated criterion for receiving the rights associated with Métis membership.

We are discussing a certain individual, say X. If X has one of the given options (H) and does not have one of the given options (N), then he would satisfy all 3 criteria given above. 

Let's look at the options: We need 3 things: "self identify", "ancestry" and "long standing participation".
"Self identify" is a part of first two options so one of those is required as H.

- Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing Métis ancestry

We do not know if he long ago self identified as Metis or recently.
If we still accept this is H, we might say that two criteria are met ""self identify" and "ancestry". What about "long standing participation"?
"N" should give "long standing participation". Only last option has not participation aspect.
If "N = Has never participated in Métis political activities​​​​​​​" and NOT of this statement is "Has at least some times participated in Métis political activities," that is fine but we do not know if the participation is long standing. Hence our conditions are not met.
Not the answer.

- Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing participation in Métis political activities

He has "long-standing participation in Métis political activities." Since he has long standing participation, it stands to reason that he long ago self identified as Metis. So two boxes are checked ""self identify" and "long standing participation".
What about "ancestry"? We need N to take care of ancestry. If "N = Has recent ancestry that is not Métis" and NOT of this statement is "Has recent ancestry that is Métis," then it all works. We just need "The individual must have Métis ancestry". There is no mention of recent or long standing with ancestry so knowing that he has some Metis ancestry is enough. 
ANSWER



­
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Re: Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
KarishmaB wrote:
chetan2u wrote:
­
Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and European ancestry. The government grants certain special rights to Métis individuals. To receive these rights, an individual must self-identify as Métis and must not have self-identified only recently in order to receive these rights. The individual must also have Métis ancestry and be accepted as Métis by a modern Métis community. Acceptance by a modern Métis community is shown only by long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities.

In the table, select characteristics H and N, such that an individual having H and NOT having N would most clearly satisfy the legal advocate’s stated criterion for receiving the rights associated with Métis membership. Make only two selections, one in each column.

 

Necessary conditions to satisfy the criteria:

- An individual must have long ago self-identified as Métis
- The individual must also have Métis ancestry
- Must have long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities. (this shows acceptance in Metis community)


Question Stem: Select characteristics H and N, such that an individual having H and NOT having N would most clearly satisfy the legal advocate’s stated criterion for receiving the rights associated with Métis membership.

We are discussing a certain individual, say X. If X has one of the given options (H) and does not have one of the given options (N), then he would satisfy all 3 criteria given above. 

Let's look at the options: We need 3 things: "self identify", "ancestry" and "long standing participation".
"Self identify" is a part of first two options so one of those is required as H.

- Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing Métis ancestry

We do not know if he long ago self identified as Metis or recently.
If we still accept this is H, we might say that two criteria are met ""self identify" and "ancestry". What about "long standing participation"?
"N" should give "long standing participation". Only last option has not participation aspect.
If "N = Has never participated in Métis political activities" and NOT of this statement is "Has at least some times participated in Métis political activities," that is fine but we do not know if the participation is long standing. Hence our conditions are not met.
Not the answer.

- Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing participation in Métis political activities

He has "long-standing participation in Métis political activities." Since he has long standing participation, it stands to reason that he long ago self identified as Metis. So two boxes are checked ""self identify" and "long standing participation".
What about "ancestry"? We need N to take care of ancestry. If "N = Has recent ancestry that is not Métis" and NOT of this statement is "Has recent ancestry that is Métis," then it all works. We just need "The individual must have Métis ancestry". There is no mention of recent or long standing with ancestry so knowing that he has some Metis ancestry is enough. 
ANSWER
 

­Hi KarishmaB
I learnt have learnt that ''when negating complex sentences (sentences that contain one independent clause and at least one dependent clause), always negate the verb in the independent (i.e. main) clause only. The dependent clause does not bear the weight of the negation, and should be left intact''

So, NOT of Has recent ancestry that is not Métis" should be Has not recent ancestry that is not Metis, right? May be it is Inuit?
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Re: Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
Expert Reply
ashutosh_73 wrote:
KarishmaB wrote:
chetan2u wrote:
­
Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and European ancestry. The government grants certain special rights to Métis individuals. To receive these rights, an individual must self-identify as Métis and must not have self-identified only recently in order to receive these rights. The individual must also have Métis ancestry and be accepted as Métis by a modern Métis community. Acceptance by a modern Métis community is shown only by long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities.

In the table, select characteristics H and N, such that an individual having H and NOT having N would most clearly satisfy the legal advocate’s stated criterion for receiving the rights associated with Métis membership. Make only two selections, one in each column.


 

Necessary conditions to satisfy the criteria:

- An individual must have long ago self-identified as Métis
- The individual must also have Métis ancestry
- Must have long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities. (this shows acceptance in Metis community)


Question Stem: Select characteristics H and N, such that an individual having H and NOT having N would most clearly satisfy the legal advocate’s stated criterion for receiving the rights associated with Métis membership.

We are discussing a certain individual, say X. If X has one of the given options (H) and does not have one of the given options (N), then he would satisfy all 3 criteria given above. 

Let's look at the options: We need 3 things: "self identify", "ancestry" and "long standing participation".
"Self identify" is a part of first two options so one of those is required as H.

- Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing Métis ancestry

We do not know if he long ago self identified as Metis or recently.
If we still accept this is H, we might say that two criteria are met ""self identify" and "ancestry". What about "long standing participation"?
"N" should give "long standing participation". Only last option has not participation aspect.
If "N = Has never participated in Métis political activities" and NOT of this statement is "Has at least some times participated in Métis political activities," that is fine but we do not know if the participation is long standing. Hence our conditions are not met.
Not the answer.

- Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing participation in Métis political activities

He has "long-standing participation in Métis political activities." Since he has long standing participation, it stands to reason that he long ago self identified as Metis. So two boxes are checked ""self identify" and "long standing participation".
What about "ancestry"? We need N to take care of ancestry. If "N = Has recent ancestry that is not Métis" and NOT of this statement is "Has recent ancestry that is Métis," then it all works. We just need "The individual must have Métis ancestry". There is no mention of recent or long standing with ancestry so knowing that he has some Metis ancestry is enough. 
ANSWER

 

­Hi KarishmaB
I learnt have learnt that ''when negating complex sentences (sentences that contain one independent clause and at least one dependent clause), always negate the verb in the independent (i.e. main) clause only. The dependent clause does not bear the weight of the negation, and should be left intact''

So, NOT of Has recent ancestry that is not Métis" should be Has not recent ancestry that is not Metis, right? May be it is Inuit?

­
Sure, but what does "Doesn't have recent ancestry that is not Metis" mean? It means his recent ancestry is Metis. After all, he has recent ancestry, and if it is not non-Metis, then it must be Metis. Therefore, instead of writing two non negatives, I would write it as a positive statement for clarity. 
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Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

I learnt have learnt that ''when negating complex sentences (sentences that contain one independent clause and at least one dependent clause), always negate the verb in the independent (i.e. main) clause only. The dependent clause does not bear the weight of the negation, and should be left intact''

So, NOT of Has recent ancestry that is not Métis" should be Has not recent ancestry that is not Metis, right? May be it is Inuit?

­
Sure, but what does "Doesn't have recent ancestry that is not Metis" mean? It means his recent ancestry is Metis. After all, he has recent ancestry, and if it is not non-Metis, then it must be Metis. Therefore, instead of writing two non negatives, I would write it as a positive statement for clarity. 

­Hi KarishmaB I am sorry, but i got confused. 
If I ''Don't have recent ancestry that is not Metis" , then maybe ''i have long-standing ancestry, which is something else that is not ''Metis'', let say Inuit
Both are along the same lines.
I find it bit difficult to understand that ''Don't have recent ancestry that is not Metis" = Have recent Metis Ancestry
Help!!­
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Re: Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
Quote:
ashutosh_73
­Hi KarishmaB I am sorry, but i got confused. 
If I ''Don't have recent ancestry that is not Metis" , then maybe ''i have long-standing ancestry, which is something else that is not ''Metis'', let say Inuit
Both are along the same lines.
I find it bit difficult to understand that ''Don't have recent ancestry that is not Metis" = Have recent Metis Ancestry
Help!!­

­@ashutosh_73, I have the same concern. 

Hope experts help clarify this! ­
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Re: Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
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manasp35 wrote:
Iwillget770 wrote:
Hi chetan2u,

I chose option 1 for H

I cannot understand Option 2 for H

The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and European ancestry. The government grants certain special rights to Métis individuals. To receive these rights,

Condition 1 :an individual must self-identify as Métis and

Condition 2 :must not have self-identified only recently in order to receive these rights.

Condition 3 :The individual must also have Métis ancestry and

Condition 4: be accepted as Métis by a modern Métis community.

Condition 4a:Acceptance by a modern Métis community is shown only by long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities.

Option 2:

Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing participation in Métis political activities

One cannot self identify as Metis due to long standing participation in Metis Political Activity.

One is accepted as as Métis by a modern Métis community when one has long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities.

One can have a long-standing participation in the community’s cultural or political activities but may not have Metis Ancestry

Whereas Option 1:

Self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing Métis ancestry is logically falling in Condition 1 and Condition 3

Please guide


 

­GMATNinja could you rescue us ?

I think the always-amazing Karishma might already have rescued you (and everybody else!), but this is a really tough question, so we'll throw in our two cents, just in case it helps anybody.

The key to this one is that we're talking about ONE individual who has H and who does not have N (as opposed to one individual who has H and a different individual who does not have N).

No single option in the H column is sufficient to prove that an individual checks all of the boxes. For example, option 1 is not sufficient because an individual who "self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing Métis ancestry" might not be accepted as Métis by a modern Métis community.

So we need to find a pair of options that, together, prove that the individual satisfies ALL of the conditions.

Looking at the second option, an individual who "self-identifies as Métis due to long-standing participation in Métis political activities" might not have Métis ancestry. So having the second option is NOT sufficient on its own, and we will still need something that establishes the individual's Métis ancestry.

Here's where it gets fun: NOT having option 4 gives us that. The double negative is confusing, so consider the following question: "Do you have recent ancestry that is NOT Métis?"

  • If you have any NON-Métis recent history, then you must respond "Yes" to that question ("Yes, I have recent ancestry that is not Métis.").
  • The only individuals who can respond "No" are individuals who ONLY have recent ancestry that IS Métis (i"No, I do NOT have recent ancestry that is NOT Métis. I ONLY have recent ancestry that IS Métis.").

So NOT having option 4 guarantees that you DO have Métis ancestry. Combine that with HAVING option 2, and you guarantee that all of the boxes are checked.

That's nasty. If you struggled with this, just know that you're not alone. :) ­
Re: Legal advocate: The Métis people of Canada are of First Nations and Eu [#permalink]
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