Talk:Military Frontier

Noel Malcolm book

There are some citations from the book in the article but if someone tries to click on the source there is none existing link ,therefore I am puting direct pdf link here : [1] if someone wants to read, I have re-edited some parts of the article because I can't find any similar citations in the source ,especially on pages 98-99, maybe is the sentence mentioned on other pages ? Theonewithreason (talk) 15:04 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Information from the source

"Poznati pod nazivom "martolozi" ili "vojnuci", postali su najopasniji element u otomanskoj vojnoj mašineriji. Istodobno su Vlahe i Srbe koji su pobjegli na sjever pred oto-manskom najezdom u 15. stoljeću i koji su njegovali sličnu vojničku tradiciju, Habsburgovci počeli koristiti s druge strane te nestalne i promjenljive granice. Uz pojedine velike ratne pohode, ratovanje Osmanlija i Habsburgovaca sastojalo se na ovoj granici uglavnom od vječitih okršaja Vlaha s Vlasima...Known as "Martolos" or "Voynuks", they became the most dangerous element in the Ottoman military machinery. At the same time, the Vlachs and Serbs who fled north from the Ottoman invasion in the 15th century and who nurtured a similar military tradition, the Habsburgs began to use on the other side of that volatile and changing border. In addition to some major military campaigns, the warfare of the Ottomans and the Habsburgs on this border consisted mainly of the eternal clashes between the Vlachs with the Vlachs". Noel Malcolm; (1995), Povijest Bosne - kratki pregled (page 97-99). We must respect RS. Mikola22 (talk) 15:30, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes ok but where is it ? Are we talking the same book ? Do you mean this book ? [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theonewithreason (talk • contribs) 15:34, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, follow the page numbers in the book.Mikola22 (talk) 15:46, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Can you help ,so far on pages 98 I can see description of siege of Jajce, clash between Matijas Korvin and Ottomans and mentioning that Jajce fell in 1527. Theonewithreason (talk • contribs) 15:50, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

This (my information) is from Serbs and Vlachs chapter, page 97-99.

• Istodobno su Vlahe i Srbe koji su pobjegli na sjever pred oto-manskom najezdom u 15. stoljeću i koji su njegovali sličnu vojničku tradiciju, Habsburgovci počeli koristiti s druge strane te nestalne i promjenljive granice. Pridružili su im se i neki Vlasi iz unutrašnjosti Bosne. 12 Roskicwicz, Studien über Bosnien, str. 77. 13 Vasić, "Etnička kretanja", str. 238; Šabanović, "Vojno uređenje Bosne", str. 218- 219. 14 Kuripešić, Itinerarium der Bolschafisreise, str. 43. Nakon poraza Turaka pod Siskom 1593. godine mnogi su Vlasi prešli na austrijsku stranu (Gušić, "Wer sind die Morlaken'.'", str. 461). 98. page 98. Mikola22 (talk) 16:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I hope you found pages (97-99). Here is an additional link where you have pages in the book and pages below the book. Pages below the book are (153-155)[3] Mikola22 (talk) 17:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I plan to read the whole book and also about the author. Theonewithreason (talk • contribs) 18:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC

@Theonewithreason: Before enjoying the book of English academician, return information from RS to the article, thanks. Mikola22 (talk) 18:21, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Sure , but I can already see that he has also problems with defining Vlachs like on page 97 : Već 1530. godine, kad je habsburški službenik Benedikt Kuri-pešić putovao kroz Bosnu, izvijestio je da u toj zemlji žive tri naroda. Jedan su Turci, koji "krajnje despotski" vladaju kršćanima. Drugi su "stari Bosanci, koji su rimokatoličke vjere". A treći su "Srbi koji sebe nazivaju Vlasima... Doselili su se iz Smedereva i Beograda" and also some neutral authors have some critique about his neutrality like Emmers : [4] .There are even some sources mentioning him as a president of anglo-albanian organisations. Is he a RS or not , I think that some other more experienced wikipedians can give better answer. Theonewithreason (talk • contribs) 20:41, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

As far as source is concerned you have "Reliable sources/Noticeboard" (if there is a problem), and for this information which you are quoting, it is one historical record. Vlach migrations to Bosnia coming from several directions although in reality there is little written historical records from where exactly the Vlachs coming to Bosnia. Mikola22 (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Major WP:FRINGE and WP:OR (the last comment). Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 23:15, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Cordon sanitaire (politics)

@Buidhe: What is it about? As far as I know this term in Croatian and the Military Border has nothing to do with the political term. Mikola22 (talk) 08:17, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

You're right, it is more appropriate to link to Cordon sanitaire (international relations) (t · c) buidhe 08:51, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

@Buidhe: I don't think that's right either. "Cordon militaire" is used for part of Military Frontier Kordun - Cordon. As for term "Cordon sanitaire", it is some kind of area for defense against infectious diseases. "Godine 1978., od 26. do 28. listopada, Zbor liječnika Hrvatske i Zavod za zaštitu zdravlja grada Zagreba održali su simpozij u povodu 250. godišnjice vojnokrajiškog sanitarnog kordona. Naime, godine 1728., 22. listopada, car i kralj Karlo VI.(III.) patentom je propisao stalnu obranu od zaraznih bolesti iz Osmanskog Carstva..In 1978, from October 26 to 28, the Croatian Medical Association and the Institute for Health Protection of the City of Zagreb held a symposium on the occasion of the 250th anniversary of the Military Krajina Sanitary Cordon. Namely, in 1728, on October 22, the emperor and king Charles VI (III.) prescribed in a patent a permanent defense against infectious diseases from the Ottoman Empire" page 72,73 and 78(In some of its aspects, it was almost »hermetically« closed (Cordon Sanitaire [5] Mikola22 (talk) 11:03, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

If the purpose is to protect against diseases, then it is cordon sanitaire (medicine). (t · c) buidhe 11:08, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

That should be it. Mikola22 (talk) 11:33, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Census 1857

I cannot access the publication referenced in this chapter. This publication [6] is on page 1 mentioning 272 755 Orthodox inhibitants and 402 332 Catolic inhibitants. I tend to remove the publication with no access and different numbers than this one, thus I'm starting this dicussion. Bilseric (talk) 23:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Some time has passed and no one has answered this discussion. I don't want to edit that by myself to the article, since I can't access the referenced sources. I'll leave this discussion with this source, maybe it can be useful in the future. Bilseric (talk) 22:52, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Complete military administration

Hi Theonewithreason , regarding your revert. I didn't see the source. However, the source doesn't state year 1881 but it states until the Military Fronties's aboliton in the early 1870. Some administration was returned to civil authorities before 1881. The abolition started in 1870s. Trimpops2 (talk) 13:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

There were parts that started with demilitarisation earlier, but the formal abolition was in 1881. [[7]]. Theonewithreason (talk) 13:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The source says that the abolition happened in 1870, it doesn't even state 1881. It also has a footnote which doesn't exist at the bottom of the page. I'm not negating the core statement. MF and it's inhabitants were under Austrian Military Law, but I don't think that every single administration job was under military administration. For instance, schooling. I don't think that in the 19th century, schooling was under military administration. The administration was complex, but in general, not everything was done by military, although the military had the "full control". In that regard I don't think the quote is giving the full info. I will leave it be until I find some sources. However, I don't think we can state 1881 when the source is stating 1870s. Trimpops2 (talk) 13:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

There are other sources which mention exact date of abolition, Valentic also speaks about that. The formal abolition was on 15. July 1881. [[8]],[[9]]. Theonewithreason (talk) 14:09, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I know that, but you can't change the quote from one source in that manner. Civil administration was returning gradually from 1870, and now the article says that complete military administration was up to 1881. Trimpops2 (talk) 14:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I did not change anything, because the quote refers to the whole process of abolition, military and civilian which lasted until 1881. Theonewithreason (talk) 14:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I know, but the source says 1870. It wasn't "complete" until 1881. Ok, I'll leave it be. I was trying to make a point that the area was under military administration in the sense that the area was under Austrain Military law, not in the was that every aspect of civil administration was administrated by Austrain military personel. There's a lot to say about the meaning "complete military administration", which isn't seen just from one statement like this. That's why the sources are pretty extensive when describing MF. I don't really have problems with the sentence itself, but I see people making all kind of conjectures from that simple sentece. But, I don't know how to sum up hundreds of pages the sources use to describe MF in one sentece like this. Trimpops2 (talk) 14:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)