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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Newyorkbrad (talk | contribs) at 00:46, 16 September 2011 (→‎Arbitrator views and discussion: update comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Arbitration Committee proceedings

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

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Open cases

Currently, no arbitration cases are open.

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Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Venezuelan politics 25 May 2024
Request name Motions  Case Posted
Amendment request: World War II and the history of Jews in Poland Motion (orig. case) 21 June 2024
Amendment request: Suspension of Beeblebrox Motion none 10 July 2024
Clarification request: Desysoppings none none 12 July 2024

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Requests for amendment

Request to amend prior case: Race and intelligence

Initiated by Captain Occam (talk) at 18:47, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
Race and intelligence arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Mathsci topic-banned by mutual consent
  2. Captain Occam topic-banned
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

Statement by Captain Occam

I’m replacing my statement with a comment on my continued interaction with Mathsci, because at this stage I think that’s more important than why I was looking for an interaction ban.

In his statement below, Mathsci says “I have not been responsible for proposing any action vaguely related to Captain Occam or his friends in the last few months.” At AE on August 31st, Mathsci proposed “I suggest that this opportunity is used to extend the indefinite topic ban on him and Ferahgo-the-Assassin to include an indefinite ban on participating in any requests at WP:AE related to WP:ARBR&I.” Mathsci made this proposal about me and Ferahgo eight days ago. This was the most recent example of him proposing action about me in the past month; it is not the only example.

Anyway, here is what I think really matters, and what has the potential to resolve the situation:

I do not have a problem with Mathsci’s request that I disengage from him, as long as he agrees to do the same to me and Ferahgo. I have told him twice that I would be willing to promise this if he could promise the same thing in return: once in December, and a second time in August. Both times that I made this offer to Mathsci, he refused it. I will now make the offer a third time. If Mathsci can promise to completely disengage from me and Ferahgo from this point forward (and this includes no more off-wiki sleuthing about us), then we can promise to completely disengage from him also.

This is really all I’ve wanted from Mathsci since December, and all of the drama between him and me since then could have been avoided if he were willing to agree to it. I would like to know whether he’s willing to agree to this now. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:35, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I’m still waiting for Mathsci to acknowledge the offer I’m making that he and I agree to leave each other alone. During the time since I posted it, he’s updated his statement below several times to add more diffs, but he’s continuing to ignore what I’m offering. If Mathsci really does care about us disengaging from each other, why can’t he agree to this? --Captain Occam (talk) 21:00, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mathsci

This request is frivolous and disruptive. It is wrongly framed since there are no active ArbCom sanctions in effect on me: all sanctions were formally lifted by a motion initiated by ArbCom in mid-December. (My self-imposed voluntary restrictions are still in effect, but do not extend to project pages; I committed myself to initiating cases on WP:AE only in exceptional circumstances.) The restrictions placed by ArbCom on Captain Occam have been extended since they were put in place.

At the moment I am not going to enter into any detail about the recent AE request concerning Miradre, the subsequent request for clarification and the AE appeal by Miradre against the one-month block which has just been declined by NuclearWarfare after comments by several uninvolved administrators (two ipsocks of Mikemikev, later blocked, aided Miradre in making responses!). The various AE requests and clarifications concerning Miradre, only one of which I initiated, have involved multiple editors almost all of whom have found fault with Miradre's general method of editing and use of sources. The request for an amendment in the middle of an AE appeal where Captain Occam might himself have been sanctioned seems like very odd timing: it is reminiscent of Captain Occam's disruptive activities in mid-December in multiple venues on wikipedia, when arbitrators were voting to lift my topic ban. [1][2][3][4]

Yesterday I sent a letter to ArbCom which I will reproduce here:

email to arbcom sent prior to this request

Dear arbitrators,

Captain Occam continues to misuse ArbCom pages to post requests out-of-the-blue for sanctions to be imposed on me. This seems to be a pattern of harrassment. When I made a report at WP:AE on Miradre, where his name was not mentioned, he used that as his first attempt to intervene and request sanctions on me. I no longer edit in the area of R&I but keep a lookout for sockpuppets and meatpuppets, because there has been a lot of anomolous editing since ARBR&I was closed, particularly by Mikemikev, but also by two identified meatpuppets of Captain Occam and Ferahgo-the-Assassin.

When I requested clarification about Captain Occam's involvement in the report on Miradre, he used that request for clarification to launch yet another attack on me. On Jclemens talk page he inidicated that he wished to have sanctions imposed on me, without producing any diffs to support his argument. Since EdJohnston already answered the question concerning Captain Occam's involvement at AE, I withdrew the request for clarification, which was then archived by Xeno. Many editors commented at the AE request re Miradre, which remained open for a long period.

Captain Occam then saw that I had recently been involved in a totally unrelated discussion on COIN, where Atama had advised me to be careful what I wrote (a BLP that was almost certainly autobiographical). Captain Occam on his own admission then decided that Atama was not well-disposed to me and requested that he close the AE request on Miradre. Atama duly blocked Mirardre for a month for violating a topic ban, the very opposite of what Captain Occam expected. That closure has been upheld by at least two regular administrators handling AE.

Miradre then made an appeal against the block from his talk page. Captain Occam used that as a third opportunity to launch an attack on me, demanding sanctions. I replied, suggesting that his topic ban should probably be extended to all AE requests concerning ARBR&I. He then lobbied NuclearWarfare to impose sanctions on me on NW's user talk page:

[5]

NW declined his request and Captain Occam concluded the discussion by writing that he would seek sanctions on me directly from ArbCom. He later lobbied Jclemens yet again on his talk page.

It appears to me that Captain Occam is intervening in processes in which he has no direct involvement solely to give the artificial impression of an ongoing dispute with me. Unless his meatpuppets choose to interact with me (principally <redacted> = SightWatcher, a personal friend of Ferahgo who started editing as soon as her ban was imposed), I would have no reason to mention Captain Occam. It is Captain Occam's responsibility that he has chosen to influence edits through meatpuppetry and quite outside my control.

All other interactions have also been one-sided, including most recently Captain Occam's disruptive postings described above. In addition in January Captain Occam wrote a letter to the Economist which he described in detail on Jimbo Wales talk page. Only part of the letter was published; they refused to publish a section which referred indirectly to me, where it was claimed that my editing had frightened a particular editor from wikipedia. In addition on FurAffinity two joke accounts, Mathsci and Muntuwandi, were created by friends of Ferahgo with pages containing crude sexual and racist comments, in which Ferahgo partipated. Finally in December 2010 Captain Occam made unfounded allegations about cronyism with Roger Davies.

I cannot see any merit in Captain Occam suggesting an amendment of any kind. What seems to be quite likely is that his topic will be extended by uninvolved administrators to preclude any participation in AE requests concerning ARBR&I.

As I have said before, I am not against Captain Occam's topic ban being lifted, but I would suggest that even if it is formally lifted, he voluntarily withdraw indefinitely from editing all matters connected with race and intelligence.

  • Shell Kinney has indicated that the email correspondence between me and her about SightWatcher and TrevelyanL85A2 can be made available to other arbitrators. My understanding was that it was discussed by arbcom already in December 2010. Mathsci (talk) 12:16, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Request. I am an involuntary participant in this request, initiated by Captain Occam. I have not been responsible for proposing any action vaguely related to Captain Occam or his friends in the last few months. Even if Captain Occam continues persistently to express some general personal malaise to arbitrators and ex-arbitrators,[6][7][8][9][10][11] please could he be advised to disengage from me on wikipedia in the future? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 20:44, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Slrubenstein

I won't comment directly on the proposed ammendment, except that I have never seen any situation involving the parties where CIV, AGF, and of course editing content according to our core content policies and 3RR, have not been sufficient to ensure the proper functioning of the encyclopedia. I certainly have seen worse conflicts among users.

Frankly, I do not understand why Captain Occam and others cannot do what I have done in similar situations, where I have simply chosen never to respond to a particular editor. All Captain Occam has to do is ignore MathSci, and he can achieve his aim without any ArbCom intervention. No offense, but I think ArbCom should never get involved in a situation where there are other remedies.

But I do want to stress that whatever ArbCom does it should not use this ammendment as a means to limit MathSci's edits to science and social science -related articles (including "history of..." articles). MathSci is one of our best editors, in his ability to research a topic and provide neutral accounts of the significant views on topics from reliable sources. I cannot imagine anyone making a case that MathSci should be banned from editing on any topic, and we cannot let this proposal become a back-door means to have that effect. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:06, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Enric Naval

I was involved in the banning of Captain Occam, but then I stopped participating in R&I discussions. I have followed the topic only because WP:AE and the other arbitration pages are in my watchlist.

Generally, Captain Occam's participation seems limited to a) throwing all sort of obstacles in the way of banning tendentious editors that share his POV, b) trying to get Mathsci removed from the topic.

Mathsci is the most effective editor in getting said tendentious editors identified and dealt with. Removing him from the topic would just give freeway to said tendentious editors.

Since those tendentious editors share Captain Occam's POV, he is simply continuing his involvement in the area he was topic-banned from. I don't recall why Captain Occam was allowed to comment in R&I related arbitration requests, but the net effect has been quite negative. --Enric Naval (talk) 20:14, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ferahgo

Since I would obviously be affected by the outcome of this, I should start by saying that I, too, would really appreciate this proposed interaction ban. Over the past few months Mathsci has made it seem like he's following me around the internet, spying on me off-Wiki, and researching my friends. This comment here, about a friend who's never participated in Wikipedia at all [12], is extremely creepy to me. It appears that he has researched all of my friends even though I haven't participated in the topic area since sometime last year. There are other examples of him obviously trying to look up stuff about me off-Wiki also. Mathsci was asked months ago by Arbcom to leave this topic area alone, yet he can't seem to bring himself to do it.

His attitude towards his conflict with Occam seems to be another example of the same thing. He says he wants him and Occam to leave each other alone, but he still can't resist emailing Occam (and me), reporting him at SPI, etc. Roger Davies advised him in February that if an editor's conduct is egregious enough, it will be brought up by less involved editors. But I think he just can't stop himself, even though he knows that not interacting with Occam would be what's best for everyone and what ArbCom wants. An interaction ban would give Mathsci what he seems to know would be best, but doesn't have the willpower to actually do. More importantly, after the amount of off-Wiki research that Mathsci has apparently conducted about me, an interaction ban would make me feel safer and more at-ease editing on Wikipedia. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 00:03, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: My statement has been refactored for accuracy at Roger Davies' request.

Statement by Maunus

I am involved. I don't see the point of this request, what is it exactly that an interaction ban would achive that would not be achieved by Occam simply ignoring Mathsci as Slrubenstein and Coren suggests? I think it is reasonable to consider that Mathsci has been targeted for rather nasty off-wiki harrassment as a result of his ivolvement in the dispute, among them being labeled as a "Jewish Wikipedia editor" on Stormfront.org, and being the butt of malicious jokes on encyclopedia dramatica. On the other hand, what kind of interaction is it that he has engaged in with Occam? He posted a reply on Jimbo's page when Occam had first mentioned the dispute in which mathsci was involved in his letter to the economist, and then tried to appeal to Jimbo (with a suggestion to turn wikipedia's into a dictatorship in order to better protect the rights of minority editors...). I certainly don't see any evidence that would suggest that an interaction ban for Mathsci should be required. While there is probably no precedent for havign a unilateral interaction ban, I guess Occam could have one if he wants it, that way we might at least avoid more waste of arbitrators time. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:41, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Boothello

Captain Occam appears to be requesting special treatment from Arbcom. There's nothing unique about his situation, this is just standard for disagreements with Mathsci. I'm no stranger to this myself:

Mathsci only rarely edits the articles or their talk pages. But when I make an edit he doesn't like, he typically responds by immediately accusing me of policy violations and threatening me with sanctions as though he had the power or authority to do so. Some examples are [13], [14], [15], [16] and [17] These threats and accusations are the entirety of Mathsci's interaction with me. I've never seen the guy before until he showed up on my talk with these comments. He refused to stop posting on my talk when I asked him (at one point, the majority of total revisions to my talk were from him). The first diff above is especially vexing, as it seems to be threatening Risker because of her comments asking him to disengage: "I have privately sent messages about her comments to two members of ArbCom."

I certainly don't think this is good or fair, but I think Occam's request for an interaction ban is unnecessary. If an amendment is made, then I think we need something that's good for the community and not just for one editor.Boothello (talk) 03:27, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Aprock

It's been over two months since Captain Occam has edited an article page. Since that edit he's been able to generate 100+ non-article edits, nearly all of which orbit WP:ARBR&I. It seems like the most constructive thing that can occur going forward is for Captain Occam to fully disengage from R/I related issues and begin contributing in earnest to other article topics and pages. aprock (talk) 21:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Ok, parties, you've each had your say. Now I, for one, would like to see input from other community members, administrators, and arbitrators familiar with the situation. Jclemens (talk) 23:37, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't envision a scenario where it would be productive to enact this particular ban suggestion given the context and history here. If you don't want to interact with each other, then don't. I'd rather not provide a club to beat each other up with. — Coren (talk) 22:03, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • The short of it, Captain, is that interaction bans are used only as a very last resort in cases where two editors have been sniping at each other without cause for a long time. In this case, all it would end up doing is give you both yet another rule to brandish to claim the other violated it. If you're alleging specific misbehaviour from Mathsci, then bring it to normal dispute resolution with evidence; otherwise it just looks like you're looking for a new weapon to bring to the fray. — Coren (talk) 13:03, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • You're right, I had forgotten this specific limitation. I think the best solution in this case might be for the committee to give leave to proceed with an RFC/U if you show reasonable cause; I'll ask the rest of the committee to take a look at this discussion to chime in and we'll see where we go from there. — Coren (talk) 14:43, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have recently become convinced that a committee-imposed interaction ban would be healthy for all parties involved. We've had enough spy vs. spy nonsense. Cool Hand Luke 23:16, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree that Shell did not refer to Mathsci as a "spy." Upon further reflection, I'm not sure if an interaction restriction quite captures what I see to be the problem. On-wiki interaction is not what bothers me.
      Perhaps we should make clear that that R&I sanctions are imposed for continuing prior problematic behavior. I perceive too much focus on Amazon accounts and message boards, and not enough evidence of continuing the BATTLE. By focusing the inquiry on-site in this manner, uninvolved users could report future flare ups. I suspect that other users may need to be topic banned, but I wish Mathsci would take a step back. Cool Hand Luke 12:33, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • After further reflection, I think an interaction ban is not necessary. Although Mathsci has been told that it would be wise to move away from the R&I topic, it is possible that no one has previously raised a concern about his sleuthing. It may have even been encouraged. Under these circumstances, and given that Mathsci is a long-term contributor and presumably responsive to good-faith concerns, it might be best to leave the matter here without further action. Mathsci now has notice that some of the behavior is thought to be a problem. I hope that is enough. Cool Hand Luke 17:09, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm also fed up with the spy vs spy stuff (as CHL so aptly puts it) along with the inordinate length of the relevant postings. I invite proposals to cover both issues.  Roger Davies talk 04:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will consider any proposals made, but my present inclination is that no action is needed at this time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:46, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the parties should just each go their separate ways and ignore each other, but agree that probably no intervention is required at this time. –xenotalk 18:58, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: Russavia-Biophys

Initiated by EdJohnston (talk) at 18:15, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
Russavia-Biophys arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t) and Eastern European mailing list arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Russavia-Biophys Remedy 6.3.1: Russavia restricted
  2. Eastern European mailing list Remedy 4.3.11A: Editors restricted (as modified by motion)
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

Statement by EdJohnston

I propose lifting the interaction ban between Russavia and Tammsalu. They are both high volume editors and their usual editing interests may cause them to run into each other on a wide variety of Eastern European topics. There has been prior discussion at User talk:EdJohnston, User talk:Timotheus Canens, User talk:Russavia and User talk:Tammsalu. The EEML interaction bans have been been a recent subject of discussion at Arbitration Enforcement due to the filing of WP:AE:Vecrumba and WP:AE#Vecrumba 2. User:Future Perfect at Sunrise has given an opinion that interaction bans don't work so well for people with 'narrowly intertwined content editing interests.' They are more suited for 'people who are locked in purely inter-personal conflict'. If lifting this particular ban works, it might be extended to other EEML editors in the future. If lifting the ban leads to poor results, it is understood that some of the topic bans previously imposed or the interaction ban itself might be restored through discretionary sanctions or by the Committee. EdJohnston (talk) 18:15, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Jclemens: Note that Russavia has left you a response in his section, to the complaint by VM that you wanted an answer to. When I proposed this amendment, I perceived it as a sink-or-swim offer to Russavia and Tammsalu to show that they could interact diplomatically if they were allowed to. If they fail, it is easy to reapply sanctions at WP:AE. If they succeed, then we get some more good content without much trouble. The whole reason for bringing this to Arbcom is the technicality that the interaction ban is from Arbcom itself, so it can't be undone at AE. Please think of this as a low-risk issue, unless there is a pent-up desire within Arbcom to revisit Eastern Europe. I agree that people who have behaved badly in the past in EE are continuing to behave badly. Russavia continues to be the center of more drama than his role warrants. Since Arbcom faced that decision before, and chose to allow major content contributors who were the occasion of turmoil to continue nonetheless. I thought that bridge had been crossed already. Arbcom had a full-length case in which to consider the issue as recently as WP:ARBRB. That case was closed in May 2010. The decision in WP:ARBRB#Remedies was to place some interaction bans on Russavia but no topic bans. There is a certain amount of bad behavior in Eastern Europe that we can't do much about, unless we are willing to issue long-term topic bans to some the people who add most of the content. I will note that Vecrumba is not among the major content contributors, so his role is not so clear. This request is not about Vecrumba, however. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 18:18, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tammsalu

I concur. These Arbcom cases happened up to two years ago now and we have since moved on. There is an inflexion point when interaction bans become increasingly a hindrance to productive content discussion, and we have arrived at that point. Given the trust and good faith EdJohnston has invested in drafting this amendment, I'm sure he will come down on either party like the proverbial ton of bricks should our behaviour disappoint him in the future. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 21:12, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I see that so many others have commented here, and raise some issues of the general effectiveness of iBans which should be addressed. However Russavia and I have agreed to bury the hatchet and focus on content, we have communicated offline and there are some topics of mutual interest we want to discuss online, but this interaction ban just gets in the way. While the wider issue of these iBans should eventually be addressed in time, I don't think it should impact or delay particular cases were more jaw jaw, and less war war, is mutually desired. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 16:24, 10 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Russavia

The interaction bans do have a net negative effect on editors, if work on content is the number one priority. I edit heavily in all areas relating to Russia, but first and foremost in areas relating to the foreign relations of Russia, and on articles on how it interacts with and how it is seen by the outside world. This is quite a diverse area, and one which it is recognised by other uninvolved editors I do have a positive effect on. For example, or [[18]] from User:Miacek. From time to time, this diverse editing brings me to articles which aren't within my core editing interests, but I am brought to them all the same due to my interests first and foremost. The interaction bans, therefore, can have a negative effect as it can prevent article development, as has been seen.

As per Carcaroth's comments at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys/Proposed_decision#Potential_problem_with_restrictions, I am focussed on content, and am willing to collaborate with all editors who are sick of the battleground in the EE area. I'm more than happy to support this amendment, though I would like to be sure that the amendment only allows interaction about the content and not comments about the editor. --Russavia Let's dialogue 08:09, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Response to comments by 2 arbs

Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who!

It is the interaction ban which has caused everyone, including the uninvolved, to focus on winning debates like those. I want to get back to content, and discussing content. Consider my contributions even whilst these issues are ongoing; I continue to work on content, both on WP and on Commons.

I won't comment on the allegations raised by Radeksz/Volunteer Marek here, but there are a few useful elements to be found in there. For the most part, please refer to my statement above, where I have supplied a link to an uninvolved editor who believes that I am obviously a positive influence on articles relating to the Estonia-Russia relationship, and also supply information relating to myself and User:Miacek.

I agree that these interaction bans aren't working well while we continue to work in overlapping topical areas. Refining or removing select interaction bans, such as is being requested here, are a way to look forward (for the optimistic among us) or the last vestige of hope (for the pessimistic among us). It was never the intent of Arbcom to use interaction bans as a way to stop editors from working on content; the intent was to get editors to stop commenting on other editors. Only by way of having editors refocussing on content, instead of concentrating on the editors themselves, can editors in this general topic area who want to look forward are able to.

Additionally, for example, from here, it is an offence for me to comment on arbitration matters relating to EEML members, and hence the reverse is true as well. Rather than asking me what I think of an editor's statements, given this and this, perhaps the committee should indeed consider whether an editor's insinuations about my editing and my motives is appropriate. I don't think Tammsalu would be too pleased about Marek's, Vecrumba's and Piotrus' continued interjections into subjects which do not constitute legitimate dispute resolution for them (all are under interaction bans with myself), given that Tammsalu and I are trying to negotiate a way to move forward collaboratively in this area, and concentrate on content.

I have taken Carcaroth's words in for many, many months now (refer to Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys/Proposed_decision#Potential_problem_with_restrictions), and I believe that Tammsalu is committed to also focussing on content, rather than editorial motives and other petty rubbish, so this is the most pertinent thing that the committee should be looking at; who wants to look forward, and who wants to stay engaged in a battleground. I have been in the former for a long time. --Russavia Let's dialogue 08:54, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by your username Volunteer Marek

I have been peripherally involved in this latest bruhaha, mostly as a commentator and a observer who is also under an interaction ban with Russavia, hence, as an editor who is affected by how these interaction bans are interpreted. I have not been involved however in any of the specific edits or reverts that provoked these AE requests.

It's been somewhat frustrating to get people to listen here but my sense of it is that the situation was/is getting dangerously close to a replay of the battlegrounds that raged in 2008/2009. Why? Obviously I have a personal opinion on the subject but I think Sander captures it quite well here [19] and he's much better than I am at avoiding strong language. To summarize the situation in my own words though, here's what happened:

  • Two months or so ago, Russavia began making edits to a number of articles which generally have not been of interest to him, but which are of interest to editors he has an interaction ban with - i.e. mostly articles concerning the Baltics.
  • A few of these edits constituted outright violations of the interaction bans and as a result he got a well deserved block for violating his interaction ban [20].
  • Despite this, about a month ago (around the time of Shell Kinney's resignation from AC) he accelerated this practice and this led to the current spate of AE requests and counter-requests.
  • The AE requests and counter-requests got bogged down in a discussion of what does or does not constitute a violation of the interaction ban, as well as the standard mutual accusations of "personal attacks" (honestly, not much more than criticisms of another editor's editing practice - it's not like anyone's momma was called any names or nothing).
  • Still, the wishy-washy nature of how these interaction ban violations were dealt with only inflamed the situation. They invited reciprocal AE requests in kind and allowed for more gamin of the interaction bans.

Throughout this episode, Russavia's defense has been that the provocative edits he has made (on articles created, or heavily edited by the people he's supposed to avoid) are "content edits", hence exempt from the interaction ban. Well... ok, if you're gonna go by the letter of the law rather than the intent, which is to separate these warring parties. You can mess with another editor by explicitly criticizing them in procedural discussions such as AN/I or AE (which the interaction ban clearly prohibits), or, if you really don't like them, you can mess with them by fucking with their articles and just trying to make their life difficult on Wikipedia (the basic example here is of Russavia nominating Martin's article for AfD, or of slapping up Baltic-related articles with nasty POV, etc. tags). Russavia basically has been busy gaming the latter loophole.

I have an interaction ban with Russavia. I don't want anything to do with him and I would also very much appreciate it if he, per his ban, stayed far away from me as well. But it is this last aspect which really concerns me here. Russavia seems to think that he has found a loophole in how interaction bans work which allows him to renew and carry out the battlegrounds of two years ago, while still pretending to observe the interaction ban. In this particular episode he has very much been the harasser not the harasee - none of the editors on the "opposite side" went and tried to edit articles or topics that Russavia primarily spends his time with (aviation, embassies, etc.). Hell, none of them even touched RUSSIA related articles. I don't know, maybe he's trying to get some kind of payback for perceived slights from two years ago, but honestly, that's not just not very helpful. I just want to make sure that this doesn't spill over further.

Bottom-line is that I actually think this proposal is ill-advised. These editors are under an interaction ban for a reason. A good reason to remove the interaction ban would be if there was evidence that they have managed to forgive and forget each other's trespasses and are now ready to work collaborative together. But just the opposite is the case!!!!!! - they (mostly Russavia, with undue language from Vecrumba as a response) are trying to renew the battles of old. Their support for this amendment (on both sides) appears to be motivated by the fact that the interaction ban stands in the way of them "going at it again" and they're just itching for some old fashion Wiki war.

What - and please, show me something specific - have any of the parties involved done to deserve the relaxation of the ban? Where is the evidence of collaboration? Of cooperation? Where has one of them said something nice to another? The only argument seems to be that the interaction bans are "old" (yes, but still useful) and that they impinge upon content creation (bullshit, for the most part, when not pursuing personal grudges these editors edit completely different topics). They basically want to go at it again and thus the thrust of this request.

My sense of it is that the topic area of Eastern Europe over the last two years has become a lot more friendly and cooperative, editing-wise. One piece of evidence for this is that we've managed to avoid a "Eastern Europe" related ArbCom case for the past two years, whereas before 2009 they were essentially perennial. And I do strongly believe that the interaction bans played a significant role in improving the atmosphere here. Now editors can focus on content creation, useful gnomish tasks, vandal clean up etc. rather than wasting their time on useless distractions like AE, AN/I or AbrCom cases (be honest, your job's at its best when there's the least to do). Let's not go back to where it was before.

So:

  1. Decline the proposed amendment as stated (or else I'll be here in a few months saying "I told you so")
  2. Clarify the nature of the interaction bans in precise terms or...
  3. ... convert the interaction bans into topics bans (which are much less easier to game) which will accomplish the same thing. This would involve topic-banning Russavia (and friends) from topics which they do not usually edit but which they occasionally stray into just to kick up some trouble - Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, Belarus. And banning Martin and Vecrumba from topics which they do not usually edit but which they might (hypothetically) go into just to mess with Russavia - aviation, diplomatic relations, Russian space program. If you'd like these topic bans could be "narrowly construed".
  4. Impose a general injunction on ALL editors involved in the EEML and the Russavia-Biophys case from filing AE requests on each other for a period of at least six months. AE is supposed to be for enforcing ArbCom decisions not making a mockery of them. People are expected to act like adults. If they engage in this "he pushed me first!" "no he pushed me first!" "I pushed him but he's not supposed to report it because of the interaction ban!" crap then just take that playground away from them.

Ay, it's a mess I know. As I wrote this I started to loose hope that this area remains relatively calm. Too many loopholes... Put your finger in the hole in the levee please. Not put a bigger hole in it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:04, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it seems I'm a minority in my opinion here. Anyway, I've played my Cassandra role, so I don't really have anything else to say.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:31, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Piotrus

First, if my comment here violates my interaction ban with Russavia, please let me know and I'll self-revert. My understanding of an interaction ban was, until recently, that editors under it are not allowed to comment on one another. I tried to get a clarification here, but if the discussion produced one, I am still not seeing it, instead it raised some questions about the scope of the i-bans that I have not thought of before, and my last comment and question there have not seen any reply for two days (and either way, it was mostly me and VM speaking to one another, without much input from the admins). In either case, I am not going to comment on Russavia, but on interaction bans in particular.

As I stated three days ago [21] (again, no response was given), I think that the interaction bans can and perhaps even should stay, but that they should be clearly limited to discussing others, not to editing content. As I explained in my model of wiki conflict, the problem is not (never was) content disputes. Those were never a significant problem in the EE area; sure there was an occasional revert war or canvassed vote stacking or such, but the primary problem was that editors who were unable to win content disputes (lacking reliable sources, etc.) started a campaign of harassment. As VM notes, this continued through several arbcoms, which in vain tried to address content issues, till interaction bans finally narrowed down on the real problem by putting an end to certain editors being able to comment on others. As a proof of that, note that despite all topic bans and such having expired, there are no more any revert wars or disputed votes in the EE area; all that remains is the occasional (and now, growing) attempts to "get the other editor" through some arcane violations of wiki rules (the rules, in this case, being the imprecisely worded interaction bans).

Thus, some potential loopholes have been found and are apparently being tested. This is worrying; I for one have no desire to return to the stressful period of few years ago, and the recent rise of AE activity and related discussions, like this one, is giving me a bad deja vu feeling.

Again, as VM notes, I see no indication that certain editors have learned to forgive; in fact I see indications of a contrary mentality (the proverbial grudge being unburied, and the sound of an old axe being regrind).

At the same time, the murkiness of interaction ban is doubly worrying. Consider this edit, where an editor under an i-ban with me has added a template to an article I've created and significantly expanded. Now, I don't believe that it was in bad faith, and I wouldn't necessarily even remove it, but I'd like to comment on it on article's talk - yet this raises some potential red flags. Should editors under i-bans be be expected to check history of all articles we edit to see if an editor under an i-ban has edited it? As somebody who sometimes edits dozens or even hudrends different articles per day, I think this would be ridiculous. At the same time, if the answer is no, this creates a loophole that can be easily gamed - according to some interpretations of an i-ban, I cannot revert or even discuss this template, because it was added by an editor whom I am supposed to "not see" on Wikipedia. I can see this spiraling as we template one another older articles, add controversial categories or adjectives, or make edits to articles that we think would be interesting to the other party, to try to bait them into making edits to them, or just wait for it, and report it to AE... a near perfect ground for radicalization, scary, scary, scary. And totally unnecessary, as I said, in the past, editing the content and discussing it was never an issue, what was, was when some gave up on that and started discussing others, in an attempt to chase them off Wikipedia. This cannot, should not be allowed to repeat itself.

As such, I'd strongly urge the ArbCom to clarify or amend the interaction bans so that they permit editing of content and discussing it, including interaction with editors under i-ban, with the very, very strict note that those editors are not allowed to discuss one another other, because they most apparently have not learned how to say anything about one another that isn't a more or less clearly veiled personal attack (criticism). In other words, I believe than an editor who has a mutual i-ban with me should be allowed to edit the same articles I do (and vice versa), up to an including tagging and AfD them, provided I have the right, just like every other editor, to revert them and discuss their edits (but not themselves!) on talk (i.e. saying "the template added to the article is/isn't fine because policy blah blah" would be ok, but saying "because editor X who added it is biased and evil" would not be allowed, and treated like a reportable i-ban violation). An exception could be added allowing the editors to say nice things on one another (this is the era of WikiLove promotion, after all, and perhaps enough sugar talk will sooth the old wounds, eventually). You could also see this as forcing a very strict and scary interpretation of PA/AGF and such with regards to editors under an i-ban, to ensure they never, ever comment on one another again - but without the need to worry about what they do in the mainspace (if they start edit warring, well, 3RR or AE should be able to handle it).

VM raises the idea of topic bans; my problem with that is that they would prevent potential good content creation. At the very least, editors should not be banned from areas they have never edited, or have edited rarely, but uncontroversially, just because the other party to the i-ban "staked their claim first". Only areas in which their edits have contributed to battleground creation should be considered. Perhaps, few editors should be banned from nominating Estonian articles for AfD. Anyway, please think more scalpel, less nuclear sanctions. We have a pretty decent mid-level sanctions - the i-bans - already; they just need clarification.

So in the end, I hope that you'll allow the content creators to work in peace, without having to worry about a battleground atmosphere that can arise when otherwise good editors give in and start commenting on (attacking, harassing, stalking, whatever) others. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 18:42, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other editor (2)

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Statement by uninvolved Collect

Am I alone in finding the number of "issues" involving Russavia et al to be, if anything, increasing? I would suggest that all of the involved editors be instructed to finally drop the "but he was in the EEML" arguement from any noticeboard, that they be instructed to be exceedingly cordial in all posts which impact any other editors, and that they be individually and corporately barred from making noticeboard postings seeking enforcement actions against each other, or participation in any such actions in which they are not specifically and directly involved. This, as one may note, is effectively a ban on any interactions other than polite ones specifically aimed at improving articles. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:18, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vecrumba

To Volunteer Marek's point,

  • we have Russavia's provocative AFD already discussed (and over which Russavia has filed an AE request against me labeling my objective expression of disappointment a personal attack)
  • in the midst of these various proceedings we have
    • request to delete and article critical of myths including those perpetrated by the current Russian administration, the article had not been touched in 17 months and Russavia posted no concerns on talk
    • a lengthy diatribe invoking charges of "black propaganda" regarding Putin's infamous "dead donkey ears" comment on the territorial dispute with Latvia, charging "hoax"—while technically not incorrect (the citation of two items to the one source was in error and the original site is no longer available), the "dead donkey's ears" comment was certainly no hoax and the constructive action would have been to correct, not delete; see full discussion thread
      • only after my pointing out no hoax, Russavia did a partial restoration but leaving out Putin's colorful statement as potentially confusing to readers
        • only after my pointing out that the manner of delivery of a message is as significant as the message, he indicated no objections to restoring the quote if covered in a suitable source (he objected to Forbes, which put a rather Mafia-esque spin on the ears)
          • that said, no blood was shed (anticipating my point on rules of engagement below)
    • and now we have wholesale removal of a source widely cited in WWII related articles on Wikipedia, regardless of its "self-published" nature (it is fully annotated regarding original sources), and promise to delete content unless new sources are found; it is coincidence that the article in question paints a sorry picture of the Soviet attempt to wipe out the last bit of Latvia not occupied by the Red Army, where Stalin threw in division after division to their slaughter—whereas Soviet historiography regarding the Courland Pocket pretty much states it was insignificant and was bypassed, the German divisions there being hemmed in. Given widespread use of the source elsewhere, the appropriate action would be to involved outside editors at the appropriate forum discussing reliable sources. I expect, however, the citations will be re-populated over the coming weeks.

To the more general point of disruption escalating in the topic area, we now have Vlad Fedorov, who once exclaimed that my ignorance in international law was legendary, returning to WP after nine months of inactivity to file an AE in the topic area he is otherwise banned from. You can follow the discussion thread on EdJohnston's talk.

But, back the topic at hand, we are presented with the contention that Russavia, who is a prolific (creating content) editor elsewhere, in the realm of Baltic topics inimical to the Soviet legacy, can only manage to be prolific at deleting content when insuring the quality of content intersecting the Baltic-Soviet/Russian relationship and is forced to rely on editors who should be banned for months, if not permanently (myself, I'll spare the diffs) to come up with links to the Russian President's web-available archive. (And perhaps it is only myself that finds this particularly ironic, given Russavia's fluency in Russian and my abject lack of same.) This is an odd form of cooperative editing in the Baltic et al. arena, but if it is deemed to be constructive and in no way provocative on Russavia's part after due consideration of his editorial choices and timing, then I am certainly glad to abide by the rules of editorial engagement being established here. As I've indicated, I've never had any issue debating Russavia, Nanobear, Vlad Fedorov, or any other editor on sources.

I concur that the only way forward is to have a means for editors who create content co-exist and co-contribute. Artificial barriers lead only to unintended consequences. Interaction bans have shown themselves to be tools for conflict, not conflict resolution. They only work (my experience) where one or the other editor/side completely disengages from any participation in the area of conflict. Where there is conflict, I do suggest that self-moderation in discussing deletion of content first, as opposed to deleting content and posting "I deleted X..." would go a long way toward an empirical show of good faith as opposed to professing to pursue particular behaviors. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 19:08, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Biophys

It would be strange to lift any sanction for people who did not obey this very sanction and who were blocked for violating this sanction (as was obviously the case here). It is also questionable to lift any sanctions for people who are in a state of active conflict. A reward for bad behavior? If you want to reward good behavior and act constructively, you can safely lift interaction ban between Russavia and Piotrus. Biophys (talk) 01:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, if both sides want their interaction ban be lifted and promise to behave, there is nothing wrong to try and see if it helps - agree with EdJohnston. Biophys (talk) 16:37, 11 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

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