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Moved in from WP:VPP

This was originally posted to WP:ANI, then moved to the Policy Pump. The discussion has grown markedly in the last day, and has involved many users.

Username blocks

Following a question on the reference desk by a user blocked for having a non-Latin-character username, can I remind admins to make the reason for blocks clear to the blocked user, to avoid biting the newbies. (In this particular case, the user was User:人, and the only information they were given as to why was the rather cryptic "user..." as the blocking reason.) Thanks. -- AJR | Talk 23:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

If non-Latin-character usernames aren't allowed, shouldn't the software disallow creating them in the first place? --83.253.36.136 11:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I have been wondering about that bit for quite a long time. — Nearly Headless Nick ^{L} 11:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Nobody should EVER be using that 'user...' blocking reason - I'm curious as to why it's so common. Is it in some semi-automated tool, or standard talk among some antivandal people? Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 11:25, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

No it isn't. Standard message is more like "{{usernameblocked}} please choose a name with latin characters". Something tha cryptic is rare. pschemp | talk 14:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Other Wikipedias do allow the creation of non-Latin usernames, so it's not a particularly sought-after feature, I guess. My concern is all the non-Latin usernames that will be created by people migrating via m:Single User Login when it's introduced - will they be blocked, forcing them to choose a name different from their cross-wiki login? - Tangotango 13:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Dunno. Will they even show up correctly on the English wikipedia? Some characters don't render here very well. Maybe we'll suddenly have a spate of usernames comprising ??????? pschemp | talk 14:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Deathrocker - User under arbitration who keeps on using ad hominem arguments

In the Encyclopaedia Metallum (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) talk page article, the user Deathrocker, who' still under arbitration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Deathrocke and was just blocked for not following his parole, keeps on using ad hominem attacks against the other users. To him, those who don't agree with him are just kids, and he's there in order to counterbalance the opinion of poor kids who don't know anything about the subject. Just ctrl+f for "kid" in the article's talk page, archive and in user Ours18's talk page, and you'll see his attacks. Thanks.Evenfiel 14:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

user:Evenfiel who was just blocked for 24 hours, for violating the WP:3RR has been blanking large sections of work on the article Encyclopaedia Metallum. [1] including 7 sources and four paragraphs.

I have told him before that article blanking falls under simple vandalism, which is a violation of Wikipedia editing policy and such edits are to be removed on site. Also it states in Wikipedia's official policy that removing simple vandalism such as page blanking does not count as an actual "revert". And as for the claims of leveling an "attack", I hardly see how refering to somebody who is a youngster as a "kid", falls under any form of "attack", its an everyday non offensive figure of speach.- Deathrocker 15:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

How exactly this has anything to do with the ad hominem arguments that you have been using since the beginning of the discussion, almost three weeks ago?

As for my edits, I have only reverted the article to an edit which you had already agreed on.Evenfiel 15:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Evenfiel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has persited in his article blanking [2] he has also blanked his talk page numerous times, including a block notice left by an admin Thatcher131[3] , this also includes messages from various users have attempted to help him with Wikipedia policy[4] can somebody take a look at this please? A few days ago I even told the user about Wikipedia's archive system for talkpages, but this was blanked too.[5]- Deathrocker 15:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Deathrocker seems to be in a personal crusade against me, repeatedly calling me a vandal and a kid. According to the following link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_pages "Most users treat their user talk pages like regular talk pages, and archive the contents periodically to a personal subpage — either when the page gets too large, on a regular schedule, or when they take a wikivacation. Others delete comments after they have responded to them.". He has already reverted my own talk page a few times.Evenfiel 15:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You have vandalised articles by article blanking as I have explained to you, as have several admins, page blanking is vandalism. It isn't a "attack" if I can prove you have freely commited vandalism, even after having the policy explained to you. Which I can prove;[6][7] Also nowhere have I directly refered to you as a kid, as you claim, not that the word kid is an attack anyway. Blanking administrative messages and warning tags (as you did) is not editing with etiquette. - Deathrocker 15:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not on my main computer so this will be brief. If necessary I will return later. First, I don't really care if someone removes warnings without archiving them. There is a conflict between user talk page policy and the vandalism policy about this, which itself resulted in a recent edit war. My comment is in this history, and the edit summary is blocked which is hard to miss. Any other admin dealing with user complaints should check the history and block log, where the block is documented. (Archiving is nice and preferred by the commmunity, but I see little point in forcing such issues in most cases.) So Deathrocker should knock off the talk page fetishism. On ad hominem, I see your point but I don't think its actionable at the moment. Deathrocker should definitely explain his edits with reference to sources, not to his age and personal experience or other editors' youth and inexperience. So knock it off, ok? Finally, if he violates his revert parole again (1 per day, 2 per week), post it to Arb enforcement rather than escalating to a 3RR yourself. Hope this helps. Thatcher131 15:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  • (After edit conflict) to save Deathrocker posting the inevitable "I was reverting vandalism" defense, if a 1RR complaint is made at Arb enforcement, I will give you chance to offer an explanation, and I will check with other admins if things are unclear. Thatcher131 15:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, Thatcher131.Evenfiel 16:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

"Deathrocker should definitely explain his edits with reference to sources",

I do.. and have done, using sources such as BBC, VH1, Amazon, Walmart, The Guardian, Wikipedia, About.com, Quizilla, All Music Guide, iTunes, MTV, eMusic, AOL, Windows Media Player, Yahoo!, Musicmatch Jukebox and others... those are some of the sources Evenfiel blanked with over 30% of the article.

I try to make sure, not to violate any revert policies, and outside of it only remove edits which fall under simple vandalism such as article blanking.. which in the official editing policy is outlined as an exception and does not count as a revert, thanks for your time on the matter. - Deathrocker 16:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that what he's doing can be considered "blanking." There are some questions about the relevance of the information under debate to the article itself, from the looks of the discussion. As Evenfiel points out, it *does* give quite a bit of the article over to what's essentially a debate over whether Led Zeppelin is a heavy metal band. Having said that, can I suggest an article RFC to get some additional eyes on the material? Tony Fox (arf!) 17:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Attention moderators and adminstrators: I request you email address so I can email you more proof of lying, dishonest editing, ad hominem editing and personal attacks from deathrocker. He has now made it his mission to remove any proof I have against him from this article, and thus I must send you the evidence clandestinely. He can remove what I posted below now and I won't care, I'll just send it to you, but just a notice: I WILL NOT ALLOW HIM TO REMOVE THIS ENTRY I AM MAKING that pertains to email addresses. It is necessary for the encyclopedic nature of this website that I email you his editing policy and comments, and thus it is necessary that this stay here. I encourage anyone that sees deathrocker vandalize this entry to correct it.Ours18 21:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I now have definitive proof that deathrocker is interested purely in ad hominems and personal attacks, as well as dishonest editing http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=78938048 As you can see here, everything I posted is honest accusations against him, and had every right to be on this very talk page. However, deathrocker reverted it, claiming I was spamming and that it was not relevent to the page. This is a LIE. I repeat----A LIE. It had every right to be there. He is now clearly not interested in honesty at all. This is not a personal attack, it is a sourced accusation. I am putting it back up here. If he removes it again without a valid reason, I am going to email an admin about it to prevent him suppressing any proof that makes him look bad. I would like to have user:deathrocker banned.

See the Encyclopaedia Metallum talkpage for more details.Deathrocker is so incredibly biased against anything having to do with extreme metal that it compromises all his edits and talk page commentary, and he also dislikes Encyclopaedia Metallum, thus making it unfair that he should be able to edit the page. Whenever someone tries to propose that he be banned (in order to let other users new to the article know he is trolling/biased/editing in bad faith), he deletes and claims it is a personal attack, like he did here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Encyclopaedia_Metallum&diff=prev&oldid=78931646

“Encyclopaedia Metallum exclude the band entirely from their database because they are uneducated on the history of heavy metal music...”, “of cookie monster music fans...”, “apposed to the aims of certain extreme metal kids that seem to be drawn to the website of the article's subject and editing this article itself... who can't be bothered to educate themselves, by taking the time to read about what the subject in question; right here---> heavy metal music...”, “A Burzum fan attempting to tell anybody what is and isn't genuine metal? lolz, anyway...”, “When people new to metal such as extreme metal kids...”, “Vs. an underground extreme metal site, ran by two kids who...” , “Most of the new extreme metal kids do not view the original heavy metal bands as "metal", because they have been brought up with a watered down more hardcore punk related version and they were not born when the original movement was around. (people).... , “As it is mostly extreme metal kids who have the misfortune...”

Here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Encyclopaedia_Metallum&diff=77212490&oldid=77204940 he claims he was removing an incoherent sentence, when he was doing nothing of the sort.

Here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Encyclopaedia_Metallum&diff=prev&oldid=77289284 he claims his decision was validated by general consensus, which if you read the talk page back then http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Encyclopaedia_Metallum&oldid=77296804 you can tell is a blatant lie: two/three (him, a lone anon ip and vegataman) vs evenfiel, dace, Reaper, Danteinferno, inhumer, Noktorn, and at least one anon IP address; I didn’t give IP’s much attention for simplicity’s sake. That’s six-to-seven against two-to-three. Casebook example of dishonesty to promote your own agenda; given that the content he changed dealt with whether or not the band included all forms of metal, I can either say one of two things: he either really, really hates the site and wishes to slander its creators in any way possible, or he is so incredibly biased against extreme metal and it's fans (who he constantly, constantly, constantly refers to as "kids" as if there aren't adults who listen to extreme metal, or as if he is above all extreme metal fans in existence) that he simply won't let any article show neutrality towards them.

I can't make this any clearer to the administrators of Wikipedia: STOP HIM FROM FURTHER EDITING ARTICLES. If you want more instances of dishonest editing on his part, I can quote them, I have a few more (and he gives me more material to work with everyday, thanks man :) ); if you want direct links, I can search them out sometime later this week (I have a lot more important things to do at the moment than try to get a dishonest idiot banned from a website). But if these instances, combined with past transgressions are not enough to have him removed....Christ, would you look at all of that? Editing in bad faith, personal attacks, biased assumptions....if that isn't enough to get him banned, you have no idea how bad it is going to make your website look. The metal community at large already has a distaste for Wikipedia because of biased editing and misinformed editing. I beg you: don't make it any worse.Ours18 20:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC) Now, if there is a better place to put this, I would like the administrator present to go to my talk page and ask for my email address. I will then give it to you, and you can email me where I should put it: DO NOT SAY IT IN ANY PUBLIC DOMAIN. I have every reason to believe that if you do so, deathrocker will watch that page and edit out any accusations against him. He MUST NOT be allowed to have his way on here any longer. This is an emergency now, he WILL remove any incriminating evidence against him.Ours18 21:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

All of user:Ours18's claims are unfounded. Feel free to visit my edits, and talkpage here.[8]

The quotes which Ours18 is pulling up out of nowhere from discussion pages are entirely out of context, and twisted to suit the grudge against me that he has, because he added uncited bias to the mallcore article.[9] which I then removed stating "unsourced info was added".

Non of the quotes fall under "personal attacks" anyway, admin user:Thatcher131 has already viewed the articles talkpage which in question... where the user Ours18 is pulling out of context comments to twist into a personal attack against me from.

This user has frequently leveled personal attacks at me claiming that I am "trolling",(for evidence of this attack, see his message on this very board) when I have been editing the site for around a year and my edits to articles have no trace of "trolling".

He has also spammed article talkpages with this personal attack message, and doesn't understand that talkpages are for discussing the article only. I have sent Ours18 a message regarding this. [10] he proceded to level another personal attack at me branding myself a "liar" without evidence.

I have also removed another of Ours18's edits where he attacked a musical movement in an article, dismissing at as the derogatory insult "mallcore". I assume this is an another motive for dragging up cases which have already been looked at by an admin. [11] He also had a history of editing with bad faith, attacking users in the edit summary.. calling them "vandals"", as he did to me in the edit provided, despite the fact that there was no "vandalism" in my edit only putting th earticle to a NPOV.[12] - 22:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

As I explained, mallcore is not an entirely derogatory term, which is why I used it (I never use it as an insult). In the future, I will remember not to use it anywhere except it's own article. Furthermore, if you want to accuse me of including unsourced information on the mallcore page, then fine. However, the entire article is unsourced, and my claim is correct. I see the term mallcore used as a genuine term FAR more than an insulting term for numetal and metalcore, so you can just shut up with the nonsense about me being dishonest, okay?

I stopped accusing you of vandalism once I read the article and realized how this site defines it; I haven't done it since and won't do it unless you actually are doing it.

None of the quotes are out of context: they all pertain to your reasons for editing the article: Encyclopaedia Metallum or a related musical article, and they all show why you should not be editing said articles: because you are incredibly biased against extreme metal and EM. This is not an accusation---this is proven. Or at least it was proven, until you removed it from this page with little to no justification for doing so.

Similarly, I did not twist any of the quotes---they are direct quotations. If you don't like it, vow not to say them again, as YOU were the one that said them. As I said, I will provide the links to the admins if they agive me their/his/her emails address(es)---you have proven yourself untrustworthy with regards to keeping proof on a talk page SPECIFICALLY DEDICATED to this very subject. Therefore, I will no longer post proof here, as you will just edit it out anyway, like you did earlier.

And as I already said, it is NOT a personal attack, it is a well-founded and sourced accusation. That does not qualify as a personal attack. My accusations of trolling are also sourced, as I cannot believe you edited those articles with any other intention than to incite a reaction.

You are the only user on this site I have come even close to attacking, and the only time I have definitely posted with the intention of insulting was on my very own talk page where you did the exact same thing. I'm fucking tired of your condescending attitude you use towards me EVERYWHERE, including my talk page. I am not a KID. I am not an EXTREME METAL KID either, regardless of how much you want to believe that. Such terminology is clearly intended to insult, as is the condescending attitude. If you don't want me acting like I'm better than you, than fucking stop doing it on my talk page. Okay?

Any further accusations will not be posted here, as I already explained. I will email them when I recieve email addresses, and they will be sourced. I apologize if that caused a problem earlier, but I thought the other sourced evidence (as well as his past trangressions) would be enough to show that he is not acting in any good faith whatsoever.

And about that as it pertains to me....well, I am acting in good faith. You have had a grudge against me the whole time you've noticed me, so don't pull that crap with me. I edited the article on mallcore from the standpoint of myself and most others I have met, both online and in the real world, bot extreme metal fans and fans of the traditional metal bands. The term is NOT always meant to insult. Since the entire article has no sources and is already fairly accurate, I figured one more piece of entirely accurate information without a source wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, deathrocker had to insert his own POV "all extreme metal fans are idiots who just hate numetal" (note: not an actual quote), which he did by omitting a perfectly true claim. His revert is obviously aimed to make the whole article simply one big "EXTREME METAL FANS ARE TEH GAY!!!," which is currently what the article actually is: there's nothing to counter the (totally unsourced) claim that it is a derogatory term used solely by extreme metal fans. That was why I added it; it made it much more NPOV than it was and currently is.

Using the term mallcore in another article was a slip-up on my part, as I forgot that this site incorrectly views it as an insult. It won't happen again and hasn't happened since.

Again, I'm going to ask deathrocker this, and I'm sorry if it is blunt (I'm done doing anything in a formal manner with you until you apologize): stop attacking everyone who disagress with you, stop acting like you are above us, and specifically, stop acting like I'm a god damn kid, because for the last time, I'm NOT. That is insulting, especially when you don't even bother trying to back it up and just do it from the viewpoint that everyone who thinks Led Zep is not metal must be a kid or everyone who uses EM for any reason is a misinformed cretin. Ours18 00:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

So now, you've gone from pulling quotes from an issue which has already been looked at... out of context that don't fall under attacks anyway, and twisting them. To absolutely fabricating lies and putting them in quotation marks in an attempt to slander.. which you freely admit?...

I don’t know what your issues are, but you need to sort it out before wasting my time with nonsense you admit is “not actual quotes”, it comes across as extreme desperation.. desperately attempting to condemn me because of your grudge (which I sourced above)..you can’t actually find anything I’ve said that falls under attack.. so you’re openly creating sentences I’ve never actually said now?.. don’t put words in my mouth... infact your behaviour is rather worrying, I’d appreciate you not addressing me at all. - 14:19, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Has anybody sockchecked these many people complaining about DeathRocker? I'd be very surprised if some of them didn't turn out to be the banned editor, Leyasu. --Tony Sidaway 18:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I filed it just now. Evenfiel and Ours18 were reasonably protesting some actual violations of Deathrocker's parole, for which I warned and blocked him. I didn't realize it had escalated here. I think there is some element of forum-shopping since I didn't give them what they wanted at Arbitration enforcement. I'll delve into this again tonight. Hopefully one of our friendly checkusers is around. Thatcher131 19:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Tony, I can assure you that nobody here is that banned guy. We only found out that Deathrocker was under parole after the user Tony Fox said so.

Thatcher, you gave him what I wanted. After your posts, Deathrocker decided to hold his war against the Encyclopaedia Metallum article. Evenfiel 04:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Coyote Shivers

I could use some opinions and advice on what to do about a tiny tempest, described at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Coyote_Shivers and user talk:CatherineMunro (please read for a fuller understanding of the situation). Coyote Shivers and his ex-wives Bebe Buell (and her publicist) and Pauley Perrette have all edited the various articles as anons over the last year, putting in and taking out unsourced information, but it's been sort of a slow boil; see the Shivers history for most of it. The situation has finally been documented in this news article, and both Shivers and Buell have been at work today. Buell has emailed me and asked that the edits which call her "Coyote's stalker" be removed from the Shivers history. This is obviously not something we can solve for them, but what can we do within our policy to be neutral, fair and helpful, per WP:BLP? What's the best line for me to take here? — Catherine\^talk 21:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Edits can in fact be removed from the history. Give me the dates/time stamps and I will do it (my talk page might be best) Thatcher131 21:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I got them all. Thatcher131 21:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, Thatcher; could you and others keep these on your watchlists for a while? I really don't want to be the focus of this man's irritation. — Catherine\^talk 01:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted twice already; anyone else watching?

In fact, since the sun never sets on Wikipedia, and the anon IP is based in Los Angeles, we could force him to stay awake for days just by getting an Aussie and a Brit to watch the article too. Thatcher131 03:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Umm, since the IP isn't changing, can't you do a block?--After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 03:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I made some minor edits so I might be considered "involved"; also I'm not sure whether this qualifies as vandalism or a content dispute so I want to be careful about such things. It's also a dsl line so it not be entirely static, if you get my drift. However, another admin can block the IP if it seems the right thing to do. Thatcher131 04:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I was contacted by Bebe Buell via email today due to the continuing issue with this page. While I monitor her page, I do not monitor Coyote Shivers (and with over 5000 pages on my watchlist, I'm not looking for more work). I wrote an extensive response to her which can basically be summarised as the following: don't edit his page or yours while you have an ongoing legal battle, complain about libel and slander to ANI, then the infoteam, then the Wikipedia Foundation. I also explained page protection, WP:LEGAL, etc. etc. This really is beyond my ability though I do seriously hope that my email to her was helpful. I'm mentioning it here because, well, it seems like a good idea. Any additional suggestions people have, please raise them. This issue is apparently of serious concern to Ms. Buell. Disclaimer: I'm not taking sides here, I haven't seen the edits to Coyote Shivers, etc. etc. --Yamla 01:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Corporate vanity

An interesting noted from Brad on WikiEN-l:

The volume of corporate vanity/vandalism which is showing up on Wikipedia is overwhelming. At the office, we are receiving dozens of phone calls *per week* about company, organization, and marketing edits which are reverted, causing the non-notable, but self-aggrandizing authors, to scream bloody murder. This is as it should be. However, I am issuing a call to arms to the community to act in a much more draconian fashion in response to corporate self-editing and vanity page creation. This is simply out of hand, and we need your help.

We are the #14 website in the world. We are a big target. If we are to remain true to our encyclopedic mission, this kind of nonsense cannot be tolerated. This means the administrators and new page patrol need to be clear when they see new usernames and page creation which are blatantly commercial - shoot on sight. There should be no question that someone who claims to have a "famous movie studio" and has exactly 2 Google hits - both their Myspace page - they get nuked. Ban users who promulgate such garbage for a significant period of time. They need to be encouraged to avoid the temptation to recreate their article, thereby raising the level of damage and wasted time they incur.

Some of you might think regular policy and VfD is the way to go. I am here to tell you it is not enough. We are losing the battle for encyclopedic content in favor of people intent on hijacking Wikipedia for their own memes. This scourge is a serious waste of time and energy. We must put a stop to this now.

So, are we ready for db-spam yet? And should we be protecting articles subject to vanity edits? Guy 08:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I definitely support db-spam. It's quite frustrating to take the articles through AfD and get bashed by a hoard of socks, anon IPs all extolling the "greatness" of the company. Waiting 5 days to clean up the garbage is really very frustrating. Also, there is hardly a difference between the bio vanity and these types of corp-vanity. --Ragib 08:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Support. We need this, and most users think we already have it. ➨ ЯEDVERS 09:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

• I've modified WP:CSD accordingly; please copyedit as necessary. >Radiant< 11:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
  • (Uninvolved) I like the new CSD criterion, but I'm not too sure about protecting pages that get SPAMed unless they take it to a level where it would get protected otherwise. 68.39.174.238 00:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

*pumps fist* Did I just read this correctly - that Brad is saying shoot first and ask questions later? Hbdragon88 06:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

• I would like such a criterion. But the way it is phrased know leaves interpretation open to the person tagging the article. We need specific cases.

1. If the article is a copy of promotional material,but permission for use has been given, or when said material is a free-to-use press release.
2. When it's obvious the creator of the article is promoting themselves or their company based on their username.
3. When the creator shows no interest in editing other articles (with the exception of linking to his new creation)

I probably forgot more indicators. =- Mgm|^(talk) 10:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's see if an example helps me understand this a bit better - could I therefore CSD this as vanity spam or not? --Charlesknight 10:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, yes. >Radiant< 15:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I would speedy that, either as spam or under the new expanded A7. -- Steel 15:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The quarterback is toast. Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak} 16:07, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Words of Wisdom: Not everything needs to be codified in a strict policy involving a 5 day voting procedure. One thing to remember is that deletions can be undone. Deleting an article is really no big deal. -- Drini 16:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

A > G?

OK, trolling through the block log I ran across "User:National Service Center" and their aborted attempt to use their userpage as a webhost. They uploaded this image:

to go along with it. I tagged it with SPAM after someone else hit it with NSD. Is this legit? Should it be? Is it only for articels, or articels and ONLY images in articels, or any image that's used (and usable) for SPAM and not any legit purpose? Thanx. 68.39.174.238 _G?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

• Orphan images from deleted articles can be tagged for deletion for such reason. Teke ^(talk) 05:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Yea, but it was used on their userpage, hence my wondering since those are usually dealt with a little differently. Anyway thanx to whoever axed it. 68.39.174.238 22:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Today's featured article nominated for deletion

Please see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Majora's_Mask - as this is today's featured article, an admin might want to close the AfD and remove the "being considered for deletion" tag. At least until tomorrow. Carcharoth 11:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Second time this has happened in two months: not a trend, I hope. Newyorkbrad 11:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I have restored the AFD discussion (which had been deleted) - frivolous nomination it may have been, and a speedy keep it may have been, but I find it inappropriate to delete any AfD discussion, these things should be transparent. —Stormie 11:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I suppose there's no reason why an FA shouldn't be considered for deletion, because FA considers article quality not notability and so on. However, front page articles are our shopfront and having a deletion tag on a current front page article looks very bad. I propose we disallow nominating FAs for deletion whilst they are on the front page. --kingboyk 11:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

In practice, it's not going to be a big deal. That AFD was clear WP:SNOW material anyway; the article has lengthy, heavily-sourced sections on the game's creation, critical reception, status as a best-seller, and so on. Few things are going to reach WP:FA while having any problems whatsoever with establishing notability. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 11:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

So why did you delete the AfD page? I agree with Stormie - there was no reason to delete the AfD page. Is it usual for admins to delete pages like this without seeking consensus? I can understand speedy delete for article space, but speedy delete for administrative pages? That was not a subpage of your user page you were deleting, it was part of the administrative set-up of the encyclopedia. Carcharoth 11:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

There are numerous reasons for deleting a page such as that one, such as WP:BEANS (don't encourage other people to do the same), WP:POINT (the nominator was disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point), and also that the page in question was - and is - malformed and thus creates problems for other editors. AMIB's reasons for deleting the page fell across those points and it seemed reasonable to me. Others felt differently and the page was undeleted. That wasn't unreasonable either. Nothing to see here, please disperse :o) ➨ ЯEDVERS 12:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

But, I... I... <firmly being shepherded away>. OK! OK! I'm going! :-) PS. I expanded the rather cryptic warning you gave the original AfD nominator. Is there a way to check to see if it is a throwaway account created just for the AfD nomination? PPS. How is the AfD page malformed? Carcharoth 13:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah. I think I spy a wikignome busily correcting malformed AfD pages! :-) Carcharoth 13:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure that the new user is a User:NicAgent sock, Golbez blocked indef and still need opinions for the AFD page to be deleted. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 19:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah. Now we find out that the AfD nomination was by a sock puppet of a banned user. Though this is not entirely clear from User talk:James M.. For the block log, you have to go here. Is there a way to mark that user as blocked if they don't have a user page, or to mark the talk page? Anyway, this all means that the AfD page should be a speedy deletion under CSD criterion G5. Though to be fair, I should point out that I have reservations about CSD G5, as expressed at this deletion review. Those reservations do not apply in this case, though, as no great debate has sprung up. Carcharoth 23:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't not see what is wrong with the deletion of AFD nominations made in bad faith by indef blocked users. For example, I see no reason why User:NicAgent's vandalism such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ford Motor Company should be archived. I'm quite fond of WP:DENY myself and think that it should extend to these frivolous AFDs. I do not believe however, that this case of vandalism is a NicAgent sock, being that NicAgent doesn't malform his AFDs and places them at the top of the day's list. - Hahnchen 00:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

{{oldafdfull}} should be added to the article talk page, or the AFD should be deleted, don't you think? -- ReyBrujo 02:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

copy+paste of three articles

Is this the right place to report cases of copy+paste? User:Rarelibra copied and pasted the content on three different articles in short series of time, [13] and here [14] and [15]. AFAIK copy+paste are an absolute taboo since they de-link the history of an article, what is the correct procedure now in this case with dealing with this user? Any help is welcome, cheers. Gryffindor 15:10, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but thanks for pointing out this case of copy-paste moving of text. You are absolutely correct that this should not have happened. My instinct would be to simply revert all these edits back to a version where the edit history of a piece of text is in the edit history of the article where the text resides (rather than in the edit history of a different article). You might need to look closely though to make sure nothing gets lost. And then, if there is an issue of renaming or page moving, find an admin to help merge/move page histories if needed. Carcharoth 17:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The tricky thing is finding out where the text was copied from! Your best bet might be to ask the editor that did this cut-and-paste job. They will also need to be told why they shouldn't have done this. Carcharoth 17:10, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Carcharoth, that you should have a discussion also with myself and Rarelibra. He is trying to set these names straight. If you go back in the archives, this user Gryffindor actually moved a lot of these pages in the past, without any discussions. He did this on Trentino-Alto Adige on 25, October 2005. I would even go as far as accusing this user of abusing the WP system. I'm just warning, be careful who you are supporting in this. The names he has put in place are extremely German POV, definitely to anyone familiar with this region of Italy. my best regards. Taalo 21:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Taalo, this is simply not the way to do things. This is what WP:RQM is for. There has also been a discussion going on for a long time on Talk:Communes of South Tyrol. Re. Gryffindor, you are talking about a year ago, a long time for wikipedia standards. Please give him some credit and remember to assume good faith. Regards, Asterion^talk 21:30, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Asterion, part of the problem is that the user Gryffindor actually moved the pages by his own accord on 25, Oct. 2005. Since then the pages have been cemented into this new name by a few people with a German POV. He often uses the rules (after the fact) of wikipedia to try and maintain his POV. Isn't this abuse?? This has gone as far as switching all the names from Italian-German to German-Italian. Having the Province of Bolzano/Bozen page stuck as South Tyrol. The Province is Bolzano (Bozen). There is no Province of South Tyrol in Italy. I would dearly like to assume good faith, but the thing though, is through this past year, this user (and now an admin!) has done what he has done. From someone who is actually from this region, it has been utterly discusting to see this process. For the life of me, I can't see why a few people are doing this.. and why we can't just come up with names that SHARE this region, as is actually done in the region. Thanks for getting involved though, I really do appreciate that. Taalo 21:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

To reply to Taalo, and to clarify the reference to WP:RQM (Wikipedia:Requested moves), I have no opinion (yet) about which names the articles should be under. That is something that should be discussed at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol (as Asterion says) or some other suitable place. I am more concerned that wholesale cutting and pasting has taken place, and without even using edit summaries saying from where the text was moved. For more on why text with a long and extensive edit history must be moved using the Wikipedia 'move page' function, rather than by cutting and pasting, please see WP:MOVE. But please note that this only applies to moving whole pages. Moving sections of a page is, to say the least, more complicated. Carcharoth 23:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't look like the history is busted. She copied out of South Tyrol and pasted into Alto Adige. That would only be a problem if we were keeping Alto Adige as the title of the article. Since everything is reverted back to a redirect to South Tyrol, no harm done. An admin will have to move the page properly if a consensus is formed to change the name. Thatcher131 00:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I wouldn't agree that no harm has been done. Check this out: Talk:Province of Bolzano (Bozen), Talk:South Tyrol. This two talk pages share an article :-) You seem to be uninvolved admin. I propose that we gather 2 more uninvolved admins (I found out about this mess yesterday when Asterion asked me for help) and then set up a task force which will fix the mess with duplicate talk pages and whichever other mess we find, and then we protect the pages from moving until the dispute is solved. Then we start a mediation process, listen to all sides and propose a decision as uninvolved, (hopefuly) unbiased and (hopefuly) respected users. --Dijxtra 15:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a perfect idea. The first thing to do (as you well said in your talk page) is to sort the mess out, merging histories and talk pages. This does not mean we are choosing any name once and for all at this stage, but consolidating things before trying mediation. Thanks and regards, Asterion^talk 19:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

In my own defense - it seems that we are ignoring the past, which Taalo has been able to point out. This page was moved indiscriminantly by an admin who just so happens to have a lot of connection with some of the articles. Even after all of the evidence has been shown as to a number of sources and references showing the title to be "Trentino-Alto Adige" (for the region) and "Bolzano (Bozen)" (for the province), we still run into flack. The page move has been requested and this is a case of disregarding the so-called 'consensus' to correct the name that is listed with the United Nations and with the Italian government. To allow this naming convention to continue is not only a biased POV but it is not in keeping with the 'fair and just' policies of Wikipedia. Because if I'm not mistaken, care is to be taken as to the proper translation and respect for multilingual areas such as this one - and "South Tyrol" is only a derived English version of the "Sudtirol" German portion - for a province that exists in Italy. The name "Bolzano" is the Italian province name, with "Bozen" being the German version, thus the title "Bolzano (Bozen)" would suffice in keeping with the respect of the rules. Same with the region - "Trentino-Alto Adige" is given the alternate of "Sudtirol" (not "Trentino-South Tyrol"). Thus, I may have been incorrect in the approach, but the overall goal was just and correct. This has been completely ignored in the midst of all of this. I think this is so obvious, yet to ignore it is to ignore the very spirit of why wiki is here.

Also in my defense, as I was doing such moves/changes I did go back and make sure all of the links were corrected and redirected. I have taken quite the personal abuse from various users (admin or not) which I don't appreciate - especially when we were all supposed to have assumed good faith. In making such changes, the good faith was to correct a wrong. Instead, well, here I am on the defensive. Think or judge what you wish, but the situation remains unresolved. We have even had users who live in the province state the correct name ("Bolzano") or the region name ("Trentino-Alto Adige"). Pity. Rarelibra 16:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Your defense holds little weight when several people, including myself, nicely asked you to stop doing cut and paste moves - and even explained why - but you went continued with them anyway. And then became quite uncivil when you were called out on it. Along with deleting messages from your talk page, you've managed to violate at least three basic Wikipedia guidelines just in the space of the last 24 hours - and still you cling to this claim of innocence and pity. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Your input holds little weight, wknight94. Because after you asked, there were not edits - you came in at the tail end issuing out to many threats. There was a lot of action beforehand - and my civility reflects nothing more than the same on your own part. Also, I don't believe I am claiming "innocence and pity" at all - or please point out where I do (in your own biased way). So your use of such words is attacking and offensive as well. Please refrain from using such judgmental words and, instead, approach more cautiously. I would definitely appreciate it. Rarelibra 17:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Revisionist history. Here's the real chronolgy:

1. My personal first warning at 10/2 20:38. At that time, your talk page looked like this, with 5 or more entire sections of various people instructing you not to do copy/paste moves including one who reported you at WP:AIV (which is how I became involved in the first place).
2. After my warning (not to mention the rest of the warnings), you changed two more redirects into entire articles, i.e. performed copy/paste moves: this edit at 10/2 21:54 and this edit at 10/2 21:57.
3. My personal second warning at 10/2 22:15.
4. Your response was then this mini-tirade at 10/2 22:38 and this bit of sarcasm at 10/3 00:11 when I offer to assist another editor in a proper attempt to accomplish the move that you wanted to do!
5. Then this massive removal of talk page warnings at 10/3 11:06.

You can dispute who is being civil and who is not if you insist but at least get the facts straight, please. —Wknight94 (talk) 18:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Allegation of Vandalism

Elalan had placed a warning template on my talk page for what he says is vandalism. I assume he was refering to my edits of the page Mahinda Rajapaksa. The whole thing started when Elalan had added a whole section with the introduction

As President of the Sri Lankan government and Defence minister, Mahinda Rajapakse has been held responsible for a significant deterioration of human rights in Sri Lanka.

Although the individual events had citations, the fact that Mahinda Rajapaksa‎ had been held responsible was not cited, and I don't believe anyone has held him directly responsible. Therefore I moved the entire text to the talk page[16] and said

As per Wikipedia policy I'm moving them to the talk page until required sources are given. Do not reinstate them unless Reliable Sources are given.

Elalan readded the text without any discussion[17], and therefore I removed them again[18] with the edit summery

rv - discuss before readding text

Following this Elalan again readded the text (with no discussion) and placed the {{test2a}} warning on my talk page. At the same time he placed a civility warning on my page for I assume my previous discussion with DRK, which was a misunderstanding, following which I apologised to him for taking my edit summery the wrong way.[19] I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask for help from an admin on this matter, but it's the best place I found, and I didn't want to remove the templates myself. So, can anyone help? --snowolfD4^{( talk / @ )} 02:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

To put it bluntly, admins can block people and delete pages. It doesn't sound like the situation is ready for that yet (hopefully, not ever). There are a variety of processes at Dispute Resolution you should investigate, including request for third opinion, request for comment, and mediation. Thatcher131 03:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean block him. That's why I said I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask for help. I mean the warning templates. I don't believe I did anything wrong so I don't think they should be on my talk page. What can be done about them? --snowolfD4^{( talk / @ )} 03:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I do want to note that it looks like Elalan has already been warned about NPOV earlier (archived) but hopefully will use the talk page from now on. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for going through the article Ricky81682, its a lot better now. But I can remove the warning templates, Right? Cos they wern't valid in the first place. --snowolfD4^{( talk / @ )} 15:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

There is dispute in the community about whether people should be allowed to remove warnings in general, but everyone seems to agree that 'invalid warnings' can be removed. Though whether something is 'valid' or not is often subjective. In any case, please go ahead... IMO if you don't want them on your talk page you shouldn't have to keep them there. Your talk page exists for people to communicate with you, not to permanently house embarassing / annoying accusations that any user feels like making. --CBD 10:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

OK Thanks CBD I'm removing the tags. But the fact is they were posted by Elalan cos he didn't want me to remove his uncited/POV edits. So I'm pretty sure anyone who goes through that incident will agree the tags were unsubstanciated. But anyway, Thanks. --snowolfD4^{( talk / @ )} 18:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Manufacturing blanking

It took over a day for an anon to revert a page blanking. Given the number of admins and tools at our disposal I find that pretty disappointing. - RoyBoy ⁸⁰⁰ 16:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Why is it the responsibility of admins to revert vandalism? Any editor can do it. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Design for Diversity 2

Per nomination, I think this is criteria for a speedy delete? Not completly sure, if not could someone please explain on my talk page? Thanks! Stubbleboy 19:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• I'd say it is, both per its earlier AFD (G4) and per the expanded A7. >Radiant< 16:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Request for a look at a non-admin closing controversial AfDs

Hi, I'd appreciate it if an admin has a look over the closure of a couple of controversial AfDs by a non-admin (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/P-P-P-Powerbook (4th nomination), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deborah Frisch (2nd nomination)); my understanding of the non-admin deletion process is that this is inappropriate. See also discussion at User talk:Parsssseltongue and User talk:Ziggurat. Cheers, Ziggurat 23:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• I fully support you examining these AfDs. But I would like to say, I stand by my actions. There is serious need for AfD reform. Common sense goes right out the window on these things sometimes. They need to be closed sooner, and articles shouldn't be open for AfD nomination more than once every six months. PT ^(s-s-s-s) 23:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• I support Ziggurat's call for a review of these afds. Please also see my exchanges with Parsssseltongue on the talk pages. I believe Parsssseltongue is abusing WP:IAR in violation of WP:POINT and is disrupting the afd process in order to impose his/her own ideas about policy. I feel that he/she also let me believe he/she was an admin, when he/she isn't. Bwithh 23:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Another user has persuaded me that I may well be mistaken about the last point, and I retract it. I stand by the others. Bwithh 01:05, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
• His actions on the P-P-P-Powerbook AfD do go against Wikipedia:Deletion_process#Non-administrators_closing_discussions, but he does have WP:IAR on his side and possibly WP:SNOW, as there was no way that was ever going to be closed as anything other than "no consensus". As for Deborah Frisch, given that the AfD was a direct result of an intentional admin pileon to turn the article into a delete-worthy mess instead of properly blocking the person causing the article's vandalism and allowing for it to be properly reconstructed with correct citations [20], I certainly believe he had the right to close it as an out-of-process nom (though I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to call it a bad-faith move on the part of the editor who relisted it). --Aaron 23:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • My understanding of AfDs is that it's entirely possible for the first AfD to be closed otherwise (see my comments on PT's talk page), but I'd still appreciate an admin look at the issue. I'm not so concerned with the second example. Ziggurat 00:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
  • What does it mean to "have WP:IAR on your side"? As a deletionist, I feel that sometimes no consensus or even keep leaning afd discussions are substantially misguided, and that such kept articles are detrimental to Wikipedia's reputation as an encyclopedia. Does that mean I should take my own initiative, cite WP:IAR and close these afds as delete with the explanation that my actions are for the greater good of wikipedia and that future afd nominations would have eventually voted for delete anyway? Bwithh 01:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The P-p-p-powerbook afd is controversial, and not at all necessarily a no consensus close. It's not a vote, and the admin is supposed to judiciously weight the arguments according to policy and guidelines. I've seen against-the-grain admin closures in favour of keep or delete in the past that have survived deletion review. It's not that rare. But that kind of judgement responsibility for controversial should be left to admins, who are public servants and representatives of Wikipedia. Bwithh 01:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Oh, I'll have no quarrel with however any admin decides to handle the P-P-P-Powerbook closing; I'm just commenting. As for Deborah Frisch, that little bit of system gaming was perfectly set up so that I'll risk a 3RR block if I go anywhere near it for a while, even though I was just reverting vandalism. --Aaron 00:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Reopen the first, leave the second. If necessary, get an admin to speedy close the second. --tjstrf 23:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Just to clear up a few things. As a non-admin, I close non-ambigious keeps on a regualr basis. This is what is spelled out in the above policy. Non-admins are not allowed to close any contraversial AFD's (therefore including no concensus), but only unambiguous keep/redirect/merges. Parsssseltongue (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) needs to stop closing AFD's that aren't unambiguous (ie. not "no concensus") immediately. Daniel.Bryant 00:33, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
      • You said I (need) to stop closing AFD's... immediately. Or what? Risk being bored by more pointless AfDs? I don't need to do anything except help make Wikipedia a better place.PT ^(s-s-s-s) 00:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Well of course vigilantism is more exciting than due process. It's also destablizing and less fair Bwithh 01:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
      • In all honesty, I've been seriously considering opening some sort of policy discussion regarding the possibility of increasing the amount of latitude given to nonadmins closing discussions when the consensus is something other than delete (where there's no point in a nonadmin closing the AfD since they can't carry out the deletion). There's just too many things up for deletion at any given time, not enough admins, and not enough editors willing to go through the often unnecessarily unpleasant RfA process. (Any such proposal would be rational, of course, with non-admins needing to show a certain amount of experience in the Wikipedia namespace and AfD in particular, no block log a mile long, etc. Like I said, it's just something I've been mulling over in my head.) --Aaron 00:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Whether the status quo is maintained or not, I believe non-admins need to spell out that they are not administrators in closing afds, and refrain from making opinionated statements during closures. Bwithh 01:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Two different threads here: the closes themselves and who did them. Close: I've reviewed the close of "powerbook" and deleted the article. Articles must have sources, reliable sources. This did not. Closer: I feel parsssseltongue was fine to close the discussion except he had taken part in it. I'd give non-admin a wide mandate in closing and a "no consensus" here was not a huge mistake, and many new admins would have made the same error. I can't say the same for the second: I'd suggest he not be closing anything early, as this was wrong all around. - brenneman ^{L} 01:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Nitpick: I think it would have been more appropriate for you to have just killed P-P-P-Whatever and made a note as to why in the deletion log (and here), instead of adding content to the closed deletion discussion. Once closed, I think most people consider them truly closed, and you risk confusion by stuffing comments in there later on. --Aaron 01:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment that is much more than a nitpick: I hadn't noticed that Parsssseltongue was a participant in the P-Ppppfhgfgt AfD. Given that, he probably shouldn't have closed it; even admins aren't supposed to do that. In some cases that fact alone would have given anyone more than enough reason to reopen it without blinking an eye. --Aaron 01:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I was working on creating a Deletion Review submission based on that fact alone, yet now it is not needed. That's taboo for everyone, to close an AFD you were involved in. The deletion procedure states that "non-admins in good standing with the community can close non-ambiguous keep/close/redirects". We need to make two decisions here: a) is a "no concensus" close ambiguous and b) do certain editors fall into this category. Daniel.Bryant 01:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This is becoming ridiculous. When an admin has to revert your close, that says a lot. Daniel.Bryant 01:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That was an honest mistake, something got fouled up between that AfD and the one for Cork. Again, I stand by everything I did, but appreciate the new, civil input by other editors and admins acting in good faith (but not you, Bryant). PT ^(s-s-s-s) 01:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Referring to someone by their last name only is derogatory, and uncivil. A couple of your AfD closes are going to WP:DRV sometime today. Interesting to see what the community makes of them. Daniel.Bryant 01:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Lighten up. I thought Bryant was your username. Don't hold a wiki-grudge. PT ^(s-s-s-s) 19:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I see an arbcom case on this one in the not-too-distant future. Oooh, the wikidrama. -- Malber (talk • contribs) 03:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I, for one, won't be taking it there. I'm sure the collective at WP:DRV will see the light. Daniel.Bryant 03:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the rule about non-admins only closing uncontroversial AfDs should be followed - and this is partly why. The only possible objection to that rule is "if a non-admin obviously has the judgement necessary to close a controversial AfD, why shouldn't he?" - and the answer to that is "if he has that judgement, then he should request adminship, because he will get it". We do have a backlog at AfD, but in my opinion we could solve that at a stroke if every active admin decided to do 1-3 closes a day, if we really wanted to - I don't believe that compromising the closing process is necessary, nor will it have much impact. WP:IAR is not sufficient here - our processes are not infallible but they do have good reasons behind them, and to ignore them requires much better reasons.

I also have to object to Aaron's claim that "there was no way [the Powerbook AfD] was ever going to be closed as anything other than "no consensus" - "no consensus" means "AfD failed", and in my opinion, that's what we should all say in closing AfDs instead, as people seem to think of "no consensus" as the equivalent of a 5-4 victory on penalties in football, whereas in reality it's closer to match abandonment due to not enough players turning up (in the case of AfDs, not enough convincing arguments or participants to call it a keep or a delete). "AfD failed" would make the meaning clearer, and discourage admins from using it as a cop-out. This one clearly isn't an obvious "no consensus" except as a cop-out, as Brenneman's closing shows - it remains to be seen whether deletion review will endorse it, but even if it doesn't it won't be unanimous and it won't be 'obvious'. (Someone please translate my metaphor into an American sport so the majority of editors can understand it. A field goal in the 9th inning when the Knicks are 110-109 up, or something.)--Sam Blanning^(talk) 11:05, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

You got it just right, Sam! Thatcher131 17:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)And deciding a nil-nil game on PKs is one reason footy just doesn't translate well here.

"...if he has that judgement, then he should request adminship, because he will get it". Really? If I self-nominated myself at RfA right now and said, honestly, "I want the admin bit so I can be a more useful participant in AfDs," I'd pass? I think that I'd have my butt handed to me with a result somewhere along the lines of 4/96/12. Also, your sports analogy is crazy; there's no way the Knicks would ever be ahead in any given game! --Aaron 21:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me or does Parsssseltongue look awfully like our old friend User:Monicasdude? Check the contribs and dates of activity: Monicasdude (talk · contribs), Parsssseltongue (talk · contribs). Definitely looks a bit suspicious to me. For one editor known (and banned, per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Monicasdude) for controversial edits to AfDs to vanish and another to appear at the same time does rather invite suspicion, doesn't it? Guy 12:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Just noting, too old to checkuser. Thatcher131 13:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

They appear to have rather different musical tastes; I see Monicasdude working on older artists, like Bob Dylan, et al, while PT has a thing for more recent stuff, spending a lot of AFD time that I've seen debating the merits of independent artists with regards to WP:MUSIC. Just to point it out. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I have been accused of being a lot of different people... users, article subjects, etc. But I remain, simply PT. ;) PT ^(s-s-s-s) 00:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

My opinion: Parsssseltongue is doing helpful work. I would encourage him to stay away from controversial closings: don't close anything as "no consensus" because those are the types of debates that need careful reading of policy and might go either way. Especially don't close any debates you participate in, that's a no-no for everyone. Also, it's okay to close as speedy keep if it's obvious and uncontroversial, but you shouldn't be the first to propose that idea (that is, there should actually be some speedy keep votes in the list). Take your closing for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stress (band). Sure, the nominator was new and didn't say much along the lines of policy... and the article might well be kept. But that article has serious problems if you look at it -- it's unsourced and has big-time POV issues, and should have had a debate (but I don't personally care enough to renominate it). Mangojuice^talk 13:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It may be a good idea to advise a one or two day waiting period before a non-admin closes even a non-controversial AfD assuming WP:SNOW. Infrequently trafficked articles would naturally get all keep votes in the first day at AfD, incorrectly leading someone to believe that snow would apply. Closing any AfD the first day it's posted based on the opinion of a non-admin is disruptive. -- Malber (talk • contribs) 16:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Good point. And while we're at it: there's an educational value to keeping the debate open long enough so that the nominator sees that the community doesn't agree with them. Clear bad-faith noms aside, that is. Mangojuice^talk 17:36, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we say that non-admins can only close AfD debates under WP:SNOW if the debate has lasted 4 or more days? Daniel.Bryant 00:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Just to let you know, I'm taking this page off my watchlist since there are other issues being discussed on here now, so if anyone would like to come shake their finger in my face more, you have my talk page to vent on. But it doesn't change the fact that I'm glad this all happened, now maybe AfDs will start being run more efficiently. PT ^(s-s-s-s) 18:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we just wrap Wikipedia up in so many Rules To Prevent That Stupid Thing Joe Did Three Years Ago that nobody can get anything done? --Carnildo 18:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Four days would be too long when the lag time for articles is five days. I've proposed the change on the deletion process talk page as a suggestion to define "unambiguous keeps." -- Malber (talk • contribs) 20:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Template guru needed

Hi - if anyone knows the template magic to create a link to the Talk page of the editor substing a template (so as to create a working "my talk" link which can be used in talk page templates) can they please let me know. This has been suggested as an enhancement to the {{nn-userfy}} template, and I'd hope to add it to some other bite-minimising templates. Guy 09:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Can't be done unfortunately. There is no 'magic word' or 'wiki markup' for <CURRENT USER>. I doubt they'd add one because it could have page caching implications and would definitely allow situations where pages displayed different content depending on the person viewing them. The closest currently available is the standard sig markup, '~~~'... which usually contains a link to the user and/or talk page. Having the sig markup inside 'includeonly' tags (i.e. <includeonly>~~~</includeonly>) would then cause it to 'autosign' when substituted, but generally isn't done because people would likely type, '{{subst:templatename}} --~~~~', and wind up with two signatures. --CBD 11:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

For completeness - You could create a talk link if you included a parameter for the username, (i.e. {{subst:templatename|user=CBDunkerson}}), but the person subst'ing the template would have to type in their username each time. Presumably not what you were looking for. --CBD 11:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It would be possible to implement something like this in MediaWiki:monobook.js, but these would only work for Monobook users and so wouldn't be suitable for use in templates, unless they were coded to just not link if the 'magic word' didn't replace (which is possible, but might leave residual code behind); it's probably just not worth it. --ais523 13:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a rather simple workaround for this: just link to Special:Mytalk, which automatically redirects to the appropriate page. There is also as Special:Mypage, and both can have subpages appended to them. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 22:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Er, okay, but if he adds that into a template, then you click on it, you end up on your talkpage, not the talkpage of the editor who substed the template, which is what (I think) he wanted? ~Kylu (u|t) 03:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Is this like bugzilla:6553?. It's proposed, but I have the feeling it will not be implemented any time soon. Tizio, Caio, Sempronio 12:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Simple solution is to have a "username" parameter. A more whizzbang solution probably isn't available right now alas. --kingboyk 13:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Tagging images as "no source"

I'd appreciate some other folks chiming in at Wikipedia talk:Image use policy#Do screenshots need additional source information?. -- Rick Block (talk) 12:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Sussexman

Will the block (even on his Talk Page!) on Sussexman remain now that the contentious article (Gregory Lauder-Frost) has been deleted? It seems most unfair as he has worked on quite a number of good articles, not all of them political. Having looked at the reasons for his block it states that he personally sent a solicitor's letter to someone else on Wikipedia. Is that actually true? Is there positive proof that he was even involved? Is this an unfair witch-hunt? This is one of many issues from what I can see which are not being dealt with in a decent manner. 86.129.82.48 14:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me see now: legal threats, tendentious editing, trolling, personal attacks. Not looking too good at this point. Can you show evidence that Sussexman is capable of working productively with people who hold strongly different opinions on something that matters to him? Guy 15:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The above IP is very passionate indeed about this block of an extremely tendentious editor, and repeats the same tired old defence of legal threats while claiming that Sussexman didn't make any. However, my opinion is that unless there is some very strong indication that he's somehow changed enough to make a remotely positive contribution to this project, no. Copy and paste that to the other three venues if you like. Also to the dartboard at the Monday Club if it makes them feel better, this is all under GFDL after all (please remember that proper attribution must be attached to the bullseye and a link to the GFDL at the treble 17). --Sam Blanning^(talk) 17:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

As a related issue, I've recently been hassled by an anonymous editor (I would guess either Sussexman or someone related to the Lauder-Frost circle) regarding things posted by other people outside of Wikipedia (see [21]). I gave him short shrift, naturally [22]. It seems there is an ongoing off-Wiki feud involving Sussexman, GLF and a number of other people - I would suggest keep them all blocked and well away from here. -- ChrisO 18:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Chelsea Tory is probably the a sock of both the anon that posted this and Sussexman. Could someone more familiar with this check that out? pschemp | talk 22:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, as a life-long Tory and now ardent supporter of Call Me Dave I would support a forced name change to User:Chelsea_U-kipper. From a technical standpoint though, I would suggest requests for checkuser. The contribution pattern is telling but not sufficient, IMO. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 01:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Freestylefrappe

Freestylefrappe has been caught using sockpuppets again in violation of his arbitration case Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Ya ya ya ya ya ya and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Freestylefrappe. I blocked the sock accounts. I think that per the arbitration case, Ya ya ya ya ya ya (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) should be unblocked, since that's the one account he is allowed to have. (I know he doesn't want to use it, but that's not my problem.) Ya ya was indef blocked for sockpuppetry but it appears from the arbitration case that's the account he is supposed to use. I changed the duration on Ya ya's block to one week for sock puppetry. However this should be reviewed and changed as needed. (I guess if the indef block is restored, that will amount to a community ban. I have no problem with that but I am unwilling to unilaterally leave him with no legitimate account to use.) Thatcher131 18:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Again? As for the indef blocks, I think FSF/Y⁶ was already community-banned, though of course, any single admin can unblock him to cancel the community ban. I, for one, will not. --Deathphoenix ʕ 19:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned Ya ya ya ya has been banned by the community. Don't you find it slightly weird to suggest unbanning one of his accounts in response to massive sockpuppetry? The ArbCom can help us deal with problem users. But we are free to deal with them on our own, too, and if their remedies aren't strict enough and the person keeps on misbehaving, we are free to impose tougher penalties without having to go back to the ArbCom again. And given this character's consistent problems over months now, I don't think there's anyone who can sanely argue that this community ban is unjust. --Cyde Weys 21:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I proposed the community ban last time, if I remember correctly; I still support it. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

He was already community banned; there is a noticeboard thread about it somewhere too. There is no reason to unban any of his accounts, I had enough trouble dealing with his IPs revert warring and harassing editors. —Centrx→talk • 22:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive136#Proposing community impatience ban for Freestylefrappe, started September 17, 2006. —Centrx→talk • 22:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

What was missing from the Arb case is a log of blocks and bans (which I have since added) so I had no way to immediately determine why Ya ya was blocked right after apparently being chosen as his "official" account, and the block summary did not reference a community ban. I see that Centrx has posted the archive link and reblocked indef per the archived discussion; I support this. Thanks for the input. Thatcher131 02:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Webspamming campaign - King Tractor Press/Shawn Granger

I'm not sure how notable or encyclopedic the King Tractor Press is, but I've had it on my watchlist for a while because it contained an outgoing link to nn-webcomic freehost Comic Genesis. I didn't nominate this small time publishing company for deletion as it hadn't managed to get itself well linked, but now its being linked from various articles. If you see the various contributions of contributions contributions and contributions, you'll see that almost every edit is for the King Tractor Press. You'll also see that the article Innocent is no longer a redirect to Innocence but to Shawn's awesome graphic novel. - Hahnchen 00:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Not any more it isn't. --kingboyk 19:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

If there's anybody here who knows about comics, would they please check this for notability? User:Tvoice is the self-confessed owner of King Tractor Press (Granger, presumably), and it looks rather like a walled garden to me. That's not to say there isn't notability; I know nothing of this genre. --kingboyk 19:09, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not a walled garden, because there are links to these pages from highly visible articles such as List of American comic creators, Webcomic, Serial killer and List of comic books. If it had been a walled garden, it's mostly harmless and I leave it to others. It is exactly this kind of corporate spam we should be wary of, not the well publicised and transparent articles contributed by User:MyWikiBiz. - Hahnchen 19:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Requesting deletion of a user page related to googlebombing activity

Hello. I am a user from the Greek Wikipedia. I noticed that when typing "Βικιπαίδεια" (the name of the Greek version of Wikipedia) in Google, the following result appears on top: User:Βικιπαίδεια είναι κομουνισμός (greek for User:Wikipedia is communism). I am requesting the immediate or in-a-short-time deletion of this page and its talk page (4th result in Google). It is obvious that this high ranking is a result of Googlebombing. This way Wikipedia is connected with a certain POV, which is against its basic policy. And also prevents certain groups of users to contribute to the project. I think also that this user page should have been deleted a long time ago (the user who created it was blocked on 14 October 2005, and the standard period for retainment of the temporary user pages is 1 month). --Dead3y3 ^{Talk page} 01:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted it. We don't need year-old userpages for blocked sockpuppets anyway. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 01:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Deletion review of Arch Coal...

I've requested a deletion review of Arch Coal. Thought it would be a good idea to post a note here... oh, this is one of MyWikiBiz's articles deleted by Jimbo. Outside opinions would be appreciated. ---J.S (t|c) 05:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting (not meant ironically) discussion happening there, with important implications for our future growth. I seconf J.S's encouragement for outside voices. Martinp 17:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

John Angel(l)o

Fresh admin seeks advice: I've just deleted <>John Angello per CSD G11 and CSD A8. However, what to do with the talk page, as well as images created by the author (PR of the small company, all copyvios from [23]) , user Moroccathiopian (talk · contribs). While the article clearly satisfied the CSD, images are now orphaned but don't satisfy CSD outright; licensing is also moot as they don't appear to be eligible with PD-self. Duja 09:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a judgment call. In this case the chances of there being any properly encyclopaedic use of those images is between zero and none at all, "Aulle Corporation" is all but invisible, so speedy deletion under G11, along with the article itself, is not unreaosnable. You know for sure that the author will be back if he feels he has a prayer of success, and will upload them again. Guy 19:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Guy, though I would tend to delete. If they can be used, they will be used as illustrations of general "company" sorts of articles. I.e. they can't illustrate the specific, because we're not going to have an article on the specific. So, do we have lots of images on the general subject or few? The fewer, the more likely these will be useful. I'd say we have plenty, so it's exceptionally unlikely that they're not redundant (truly redundant). Geogre 01:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to whoever cleaned up after me; erm, what's the secret of destroying entire history of the article, even for me? I see no trace that the article has ever existed. Duja 14:19, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

John Angelo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - took me a moment to work that one out :-) Guy 15:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Duja 15:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Design for Diversity 2

Could someone please close this afd? The article should have been speedy deleted G4. Stubbleboy 12:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Done. Duja 14:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Unable to load Button_array.png in the edit page

Is it just me or is that universal? coz it is causing delays in loading the page and it makes the page look little odd. --WinHunter ^(talk) 17:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

If that's the make table button it wasn't visible in AWB (IE) for me earlier, so I turned image display off. Is visible in Firefox for me now. That particular URL you provided isn't loading at the moment... --kingboyk 18:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Nvm, I can see that the problem was fixed in this edit. --WinHunter ^(talk) 00:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair use stamps: revisitied ...

About 2 months ago, I raised the issue of a huge number of stamps being used in biography articles, where there is no mentioned of the stamp, or only a small sentence saying that "this govt has issued a stamp on the subject" or something equally brief.

An example can be found here, for the article Bhagat_Puran_Singh. Here, the article mentions only mentions "Indian Government issued postal stamp in honor of Bhagat Puran Singh in 2004.", and this sentence is being used to justify the "Fair use" of the stamp image.

According to Category:Fair use stamp images and {{Stamp}},

stamp images in this category should not be used solely as a cheap way to illustrate articles. In addition to the problem that images are often altered for artistic reasons and thus may not be factually accurate representations of their subject, Wikipedia:Fair use criteria does not allow for it.

In some cases, the issuance of a stamp is itself notable, and the stamp may be allowable in the article (for instance, if the issuance of the stamp was an overtly political act, with the design chosen for political purposes). For these images, the image description page must describe this as part of its fair use rationale, and the article(s) using the stamp must do so also.

So, my question is, is providing a single sentence like "the govt of x issued a stamp on Y on year z" sufficient justification of including a fair use stamp image in a biography article? This type of usage has again become prevalent since the last cleanup 2 or 3 months ago. I'm waiting for some more comments from other admins to go on and remove these again. The last time I raised the question here at ANB, most of the people opined that there needs to be more coverage of the stamp rather these "one sentence description"s to justify inclusion of the stamp under fair use. Thanks. --Ragib 20:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

You understand things correctly. Stamps are not good portraits, and should only be used when there is commentary on the stamp itself. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

However, if the image is indeed in the public domain, as one editor of that article has asserted, the image page needs to be retagged and you can use the image for whatever you like, as long as it benefits the article. Using free images for decoration, as long as it's in encyclopedic style, is fine. Cat has a dozen images, since free images of cats are readily available. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the assertion made by that editor that Indian postage stamps are in PD, is incorrect. In fact, the copyright for such material lasts 60 years, so anything post-1946, as all of these Indian stamps are, still are under copyright. This is not the case with some other countries, in which case PD tag applies easily. Thanks. --Ragib 21:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Then stay the course, by all means. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

To be more precise, I've checked out the conditions for reproduction of Indian postage stamps [24], which state:

Re-production of stamps is allowed for illustration purposes in Philatelic Publication or in an article relating wholly on postage stamps which may appear in any magazine, newspaper or publication of a general character. Such reproduction should however, be only in black. If stamps are to be produced in colour for publicity purposes, prior permission of the Director General of Posts must be obtained. To avoid similarity with the postage , such reproduction must be distinctively in smaller or larger sizes than the actual stamp and must be without perforation on the edges. Further, across bar will also be placed on one- corner of the stamp, obliterating the denomination. It must be noted that reproduction of the stamp in colour of the actual size of the stamp with perforation of the edges may be deemed to be taken as production of the actual stamp

So, this strict requirement disallows all Indian stamps unless it is not used in a philatelic article, even in that case, it should be converted to black and white. --Ragib 21:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

This talks of disallowing it in a "publication". It does not cover "online" as wikipedia is not a "publication". An owner of a stamp collection is not barred from displaying his stamps or it's photo's either. And if the same effort could be put in to find out how to get an image onto the article I think it would benefit wikipedia much more. Haphar 08:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

It's the above sort of innocent but maddening misunderstanding about the nature of 'publication' that makes copyright problems so difficult to resolve on Wikipedia. For the record, putting something on a publicly accessible website – including ours – is most definitely publication. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Ragib's interpretation above seems to be the correct one. Good luck converting all those images. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 13:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Conversely, I'd like to point out that often (though not always) the issuance of a stamp is a significant event. For example, it may be possible to incorporate (sourced) commentary on which of several possible aspects of a person a stamp chose to focus on, etc. When possible, this simultaneously enhances the article and justifies fair use of the stamp. - Jmabel | Talk 00:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

BlogMad

I contest to the deletion (under WP:PROD) of BlogMad. It was notable, IMO, and with a bit of cleaning-up can be a good article. I therefore ask an admin to restore this, without discussion, per WP:PROD. It may then be sent to WP:AFD if people contest my contest. :P Computerjoe's talk 20:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

that deletion seems quite right. no need to undo it. Hwang Seong Gyeong 20:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Already undeleted by User:Wangi. Refer to AfD or not as you wish, but the time to object to PRODding is probably during the PROD gap rather than after. ➨ ЯEDVERS 20:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I restored it, had a look... Done a bit of sniffing around and then speedy deleted it under WP:CSD#A7. Not notable at all, have a look at WP:WEB for starters. What little there is there can be userfied if you want?

I've not problem if another admin disagrees but i think it's fairly cleancut. Thanks/wangi 20:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

A bit process-bound and making-a-pointy to undelete a PROD in order to speedy delete, if you don't mind me saying so :o) Although looking at it in the 50 seconds or so it was undeleted, it seemed to fail {{db-web}}. But I'd say the delete should be without prejudice on its recreation asserting notability with sources. ➨ ЯEDVERS 21:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Restoring and then speedy deleting does mean the article has to be reviewed before being undeleted again, rather than just being restored immediately on request as articles deleted via PROD are. To me it seems closer to, after accidentally pressing 'enter' and leaving an empty deletion log entry, undeleting and redeleting an article in order to leave a better summary (which I've done a few times), than going through two processes for their own sake. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 00:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah ;) I did undelete it in good faith... but then when it was so un-notable... Next time round I'll preview the deleted page first! It's the normal case of something that's in the beta stage, and certainly if it does stick around, is successful and meets WP:WEB then there's no reason we shouldn't have an article in the future. Thanks/wangi 21:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• Well, if the original objector is still objecting, the way forward now is WP:DRV. It's probably just a delay rather than a win, though. I hope that the objector will remember that the presence of an article doesn't make something good, and the absence of an article doesn't make it bad. Geogre 01:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

  Ok, everyone's raised valid points. This was, until recently, in the Alexa top 10k and Technorati has recorded 4231 mentions of BlogMad [25], which IMO isn't non-notable (but maybe not certain notability). However, I do not believe it is A7. Nevermind. Computerjoe's talk 17:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

When did WP:AN become WP:DRV? User:Zoe|(talk) 03:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

This, originally, did not need to go to DRV as I was asking a PROD deleted article to be restored, which can be done with no discussion. Computerjoe's talk 07:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Unsuitable username

User:Say "BYE, BYE, HARD DRIVE" By CLICKing HERE!. Speaks for itself. --Alex (Talk) 21:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Already blocked. Naconkantari 22:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Request third-party Administrators to look into issue

Hi all. Recently, two users, Lesfer (talk · contribs) and Netkinetic (talk · contribs), have contacted me on account of continued altercations between them, which now also involve CrystalB4 (talk · contribs).
Although I have had no part in the ongoing situation, because of my previous interactions with both users I am not the ideal Administrator to decide on the issue. Therefore, I request that other Administrators look into it, since I feel that the situation does merit attention, possibly a Request for Comments.
I am copying here the comments made on my talk page to bring the issue to my attention (here).

<start quote>

Redux, if you would please advise editor Lesfer to refrain from personal attacks, specifically (Don't be such a cry baby, kid. Grow up.), and here (really, how old are you? 10?). Thank you. NetK 04:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, Redux. Please, check articles Nuklon and Hyperion (comics) recent edits. Then check my talk page, Netkinetic's and CrystalB4's. You'll see I I've done nothing wrong and I've got nothing to hide. Unfortunately this user has a personal grudge against me. Sorry for the headache. Regards. —Lesfer ^(t/c/@) 04:09, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Greetings Redux. As to the articles in question, there is a semantic difference in how Lesfer and myself view the categories as they are assigned to specific individuals with two aliases. It is not myself but Lesfer who appears to have "a personal grudge against me" (please see the aforementioned personal attacks and incivility), however unlike my esteemed fellow editor I wish to WP:AGF on his behalf and hope you can instruct him that such terms as "kid" here in North America are viewed in a condescending manner. Thank you for your time. NetK 04:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

<end quote>

I am willing to provide any opinion that may be helpful in resolving the situation, but I cannot, given my history with both users, render a decision on it. Thank you, Redux 00:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Without getting into much of the detail, I would suggest that all editors avoid, by all means, reflecting on each others' persons, especially when it is not the person that is irritating. Remember: all we are is words. If one editor's edits bother you, talk about the edits, not the editor. Similarly, if someone says something about you, instead of your edits, remember that he or she doesn't know you, has never met you, can't judge you. You cannot be hurt by someone whose sum knowledge of you is a few words on a single website somewhere. Both "you're an idiot" and "you should be banned for calling me an idiot" are leading you toward greater conflict and less happiness. You both have goals here. State your goals. Read the other person's goals. Don't refute, don't point out the error: state the positive, the hope, the desire.

If it's too difficult to let the insults pass, then we have the mediation cabal who will try to help out. Geogre 01:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Geogre, your words speak to the heart of the matter. Alas instead of focusing on edits, Lesfer persists in using derrogatory terminology directed specifically towards myself. How would WP:NPA and WP:CIV apply, or should they not be considered at this point? Lesfer communicates to various editors (not solely myself) in such a condescending tone which completely undermines the entire process we are attempting to achieve here at Wikipedia. I would suggest that since he fails to act in a civilized manner that he simply avoid directing comments towards myself and I will do the same. If not, then yes a mediation cabal may be the only alternative towards reigning this editor's persistent violations of the above cardinal guidelines of Wikipedia which have been established as essential guiding principals. NetK 12:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's begin the part where we don't comment on other people from now, okay? Steve block Talk 13:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zaki, Israel

Requesting a close on this week-old AFD with a clear consensus to delete. NeoChaosX [talk | contribs] 01:39, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Closed. Naconkantari 03:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

In need of assistance

I am in need of assistance with a problem I seem to be having with the user User:MONGO, an administrator. I attempted to engage him in a dialog about his protection of his talk page, an act I believe to be irresponsible consider he has been blocking anonymous IP's, leaving them no way to contact him. He is of course entitled to disagree with him, and were he to argue his point to me, he might even sway me to his opinion.

This does not however entitle him to insult me, break WP:AGF, violate WP:CIVIL, and attack me openly. I am seeking mediation for this issue, and for someone to confront him about his attitude problem. I don't think his actions and behavior are really appropriate for any user, let alone an administrator. Urek 06:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

My email is always on. The only IP's I block are those that are vandalizing. Blocked IP's can always email any admin to request they be unblocked. You have less than 50 edits(Urek (talk · contribs)), and then show up on my talk page after not editing for a week to question why I have it semi-protected? Nice try.--MONGO 06:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I showed up on your talk page in relation to some NPOV edits I saw go up, and your actions in banning a user (who I agree deserved banning). The fact that I have not edited recently does not excuse you to be rude, uncivil, and violate policy by threatening other users. Your actions are uncalled for. I've not edited for a week because I am still learning the system. I feel it is important for me to read the edits of others and to learn the craft before I begin editing myself. So far my edits have been related to clean up, as I don't feel qualified for much else.

I am qualified however to discuss with you what I think is an ethical conundrum as a matter of academic interest. If you did not wish to speak with me on the subject, the correct response would have been "I'm sorry but I disagree", not to violate WP:CIVIL, WP:AFG, and to attack me. That sort of behavior is never appropriate.

Perhaps if you spent some time reading Wikipedia policy, as I have this past week, you would realize this. As an administrator I would think you would be open to discussion from other users. Part of your job is to be a steward of the community, a job you cannot fulfill through rudeness and incivility. Urek 06:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

• I ask that these two ignore each other for a while. No one wants a widening gyre of insults. Go do something else, it will be looked into. I'll take your mutual silence to be consent. - brenneman ^{L} 06:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for looking into this, I would request as a courtesy a follow up discussion. I would also appreciate mediation between MONGO and myself. Urek 06:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Games: You have not even 50 edits. You went a week and made no edits. You suddenly appear on my talk page and question why my talk page is semi-protected? You then start questioning why an IP has their talk page protected after I blocked them for 31 hours...(the IP talk page was protected by a different admin.) [26] and the IP was adding NPOV tags all over the place, like to this noticeboard [27], [28], yet you I was abusing a newbie[29]? "Newbies" don't go around slapping NPOV tags on articles and noticeboards. Thanks for wasting our time. G'night.--MONGO 06:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

You two take hints like my cat. Stop talking, both of you! regardless of who is correct and to what degree, nothing you can either now say will make a differnce. It's on this noticeboard to get wider input so be quiet and let that happen. - brenneman ^{L} 06:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no wider imput needed...learn when you're being trolled if you are to be expected to become an effective admin. Don't ever tell me on this or any other board to stop talking again.--MONGO 06:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Alright, Mongo has forced me to this with his repeated breach of WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, and WP:BITE. I hereby request formal mediation. Urek 06:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow! So few edits, yet you link to those pages like a champ...wow!--MONGO 06:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, as I have said, I've spent the last week diligently reading Wikipedia policy and editing guidelines. I believe it is something expected of all new users. One week later and I have barely scratched the surface. I don't plan on truly beginning to edit until I am done perusing the entire policy database. Urek 06:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Cool...I mean, your account was barely 30 minutes old and on only your sixth edit, you linked to WP:Weasel Words [30]...impressive.--MONGO 06:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I will respect your suggestion and retire to my reading. Urek 06:36, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of the merits of this particular case, protecting user talk pages, especially those of admins, should be the last resort. You (and other people) can always revert vandalism, but nobody but an admin can leave you a message without revealing their email address if the page is protected. Zocky | picture popups 12:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes, there has been lots of trolling on my talk page...hence the protection and it was a last resort. It was even re-semiprotected from Urek by Tom Harrison last evening.--MONGO 13:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The only one acting like a troll here is you MONGO, with your continued rudeness and insults. Your page was not protected from me, I left it alone as soon as I came here and have not been back. Urek 14:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Troll blocked, as usual. Nothing to see here, move along now. Guy 15:36, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Zocky, User:NSLE used to frequently protect his user talk page. Anomo 18:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

NSLE was desysopped. Nice guy, but maybe you should find a better example? ~Kylu (u|t) 00:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Urek blocked an unblocked

I've unblocked this user. Urek did not comment on MONGO's talk once asked, and had been quite specificaly told that while it wasn't a good idea to comment here, he could. Urek was using my talk page in a positive manner, and made only one edit to this page following that. That comment was ill-advised, and he was blocked. As this user was perhaps not aware of MONGO's recent history, the phrase MONGO used, "lots of trolling," could have been seen as an escalation of hostilities. - brenneman ^{L} 04:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. Guy 09:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

AFD's from September 30 have not all been closed

Hey, what happened to the Articles for Deletion Log for September 30? I don't see a link to it on WP:AFD and there are a number of AFD discussions in the log that have not been closed. Did the bot get confused and delete the link by accident? In any event, we need one or more admins to close the September 30 AFD's that are still open. Thanx.

--Richard 16:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

• I've added a link to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/old. While Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old is bot-managed, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/old is not, and needs to be edited manually. --Deathphoenix ʕ 17:19, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

HQCentral

User:HQCentral writes some great stuff, but often writes things that totally violate WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. And he has the annoying habit of simply removing tags when people call him on it. As for that article (House Made of Dawn (analysis), I think it belongs published somewhere, but I don't think it fits the criteria for Wikipedia. I tangled with him sufficiently over this sort of thing at Collier's Encyclopedia that, frankly, I'm not wading in there again. But if someone wants to try to work with him and make some constructive suggestions as to where this part of his work would be more welcome, I suspect that both he and we would benefit.

Please handle with care if you are pursuing this; he writes some great stuff, and the last thing we would want to do is to actually drive him away. - Jmabel | Talk 00:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

article masquarading as an image description

The image description for Image:Codrin.jpg appears to be attempting to be an article, presumably about the person it depicts. Its not easy to read, but I suspect that if it were posted as an article it would be prodable if not speediable, so I am reluctant to copy and paste it to the main namespace. This isn't a case for IfD as the image (if a source is provided) is fine - any suggestions? MfD? Thryduulf 02:25, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Presumably autobiographical: suggest userfy. And if that's not acceptable... well, image descriptions are just as subject to editing as any other content. - Jmabel | Talk 02:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Proven proxies have been literally waiting for over a month to be blocked.

There are open proxies that have been listed as proven open proxies by non-administrators at Wikipedia:WikiProject on open proxies#Waiting, but these have yet to be blocked. Please block them. Jesse Viviano 05:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

title wrong

On the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobili_Lamborghini the page is protected, and the title in the box has been changed to "you suck".

It's not protected. This didn't really require admin intervention, but it's fixed now. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 07:08, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Name change

Fys, formerly Dbiv who signed as David, wishes to announce his change of username. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 10:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations. What's a Fys by the way? The Land 10:10, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

If you go to my user page, all will be explained. My mother's family was Manx. It's pronounced "fiss", incidentally. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 10:23, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

User pushing original research into articles

Hi, can anyone help with this problem:Talk page problems regarding original research and the entropy page. Thanks: --Sadi Carnot 14:25, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see an issue at the page you link to, or with entropy talk page it refers to. There it appears you're locked in a simple content dispute, and as it says above, " these pages are not the place to bring disputes over content..." FeloniousMonk 14:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Probation

I have replaced the incomplete list of users on probation with a complete one. Would appreciate a check that no-one has been omitted. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 16:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Janet Jackson site

There is vandalisim on the janet Jackson site in the form of defamatory content.

Need deleted revision of an image

Apparently, Image:Backgammon board.jpg was recently deleted from en (actually, I don't know how to find it in the deletion log, so I can only deduce that this is what happened). Presumably, this is because an equivalent image is now available at Commons. However, the image at Commons has an unfortunate error: the pieces are set up wrong. If an admin could restore the most recent revision of the now-deleted copy at en, I'd be glad to upload it to Commons and replace the one there. —ptk✰fgs 21:03, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Done. pschemp | talk 21:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I've replaced the copy at commons; now the one here is no longer needed. —ptk✰fgs 21:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

And it's gone again :) /wangi 22:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Contents

I just wanted to request that additional experienced editors come help discuss the purpose and direction of Wikipedia:Contents and the pages that it lists. Transhumanist, Rfrisbie and I have redesigned and overhauled most of the reference pages listed, but are now talking ourselves in circles about how they could/should evolve. The primary threads are Wikipedia_talk:Contents#"Best articles" and the 2 following. Thanks :) --Quiddity 21:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Canzo and Canz

An IP has broken article's history for Canzo (official italian name), by creating a new page Canz (local name in lombard dialect).

The same thing was done on French Wikipedia, with fr:Canzo (see history) and fr:Canz (see history and [31]). This was changed by reverting the changes, deleting page Canz (against GFDL license, cause of copy-paste without any explanation), then creating a redirect in Canz and protecting it.

See also: fr:Wikipédia:Requête aux administrateurs#Canzo.

Could any sysop do something to restore and protect article's history for Canzo? Thanks. Hégésippe | ±Θ± 23:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC)