Talk:Ren Gill

Citation failed verification

Since becoming sick, Ren has said that his life's work has been closely related to looking for better ways to deal with mental health issues.

This sentence failed verification and it will be hard to support this statement until someone covers the fact that CNN reverted the edits they made to their original news report. I did see the twitter post Ren made saying CNN made the correction to include that statement,. I never saw the corrected report, only the original, so it can't put a viewed date for the corrected version and they don't have an edit log like Wikipedia. I'm going to use Ren's post to support the statement for now since it is information he would be expected to know. If you have a better citation, please use it instead.. Kiwatts (talk) 07:22, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

For clarification I was wrong about the fact that CNN video no longer contains Ren's statement and They reverted back to their original video. Ren also has his statement on his YouTube community tab https://www.youtube.com/post/Ugkx-23idnABxsyy5NACvFuUJj18ONKiyfCU and his Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/renmakesmusic/posts/pfbid0opyvCwpxgEQ6hJoLofuq48XQKhyRrhX2aNVwebxoVQJEEfJGk1d7uYU4E1BcK1Uzl

I'm not sure of the protocol for addressing a failed citation tag. If I should have left it please let me know.. Kiwatts (talk) 07:52, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Just replace the failed citation with something better when you have it. The tag is like "citation needed". It shows that the statement needs sourcing, but has been left in the article because it is probably true. (Edit: looks like that is exactly what you did. All good). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:07, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Can we use Ren's Twitter as a citation? I want to use it for his move to Brighton in 2013. In early Feb 2013 he says he is moving to Brighton in two weeks time. Then in March talks about how he likes living there. Dovonex (talk) 12:35, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:ABOUTSELF, it can be used as a source for statements people make about themselves. --Jayron32 13:07, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Reference 7 says non primary source needed. It isn't a primary source. It's a link to a genealogy website called Genes Reunited that has a database of the England & Wales Births 1837-2006. The title of the page that shows the search results is Ren Erin Gill - Births and Baptisms [1] - Genes Reunited but the information didn't actually come from him. It's from the National Database which is part of the public record. The citation generator provided the title. Should we change the title of the webpage so it's more obvious that the source isn't primary? Would this work? Births and Baptisms - Ren Erin Gill - Genes Reunited Kiwatts (talk) 19:51, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The genealogy site itself is not a great source owing to user generated content, but this record is fine because it is not user generated, it is a record from the register of births. So the information is perfectly reliable, but it is a primary source. The register of births is a primary source. It's not really a huge problem here. We could just remove the template. However, a secondary source might be a book that describes this information about him. You might wonder why that is better, when the book could, in fact, be wrong. But then, we could also wonder whether this record is for this Ren Gill or a different one! Not very likely as the name is unusual though. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:11, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I am confident that date is correct. He has actually stated that is his birthday in several posts and one of the videos for his song 1990 shows that date multiple times during the video although the time of day shown does vary every time it shown. I will be on the lookout for a better source. Kiwatts (talk) 20:33, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

There are no other people born in the UK called Ren Erin Gill from 1837-2006, that is in the whole history of the register, that is released. So I guess it's him. :) I would say Genesreunited is a secondary source, they have a copy of the BDM Index as do many other websites, they are not accessing the government website to access the data, you literally have to go to their offices in London and transcribe it and of course it is secondary to the government as all the information they have has been given to them by his parents. There is no automatic registering of births in the UK. Plus as Kiwatts says Ren has stated his birthday on numerous occasions. Dovonex (talk) 22:13, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

No it is a primary source. It is the information transcribed from the register. The fact that they do not hold the physical document is irrelevant. What you are seeing is a transcription of the primary source, and that is primary. But I don't have a problem with removing that template. The information is correct, supported by the source (primary or otherwise). While a secondary source would be great, there is no real doubt that this is a verified statement, so the template can go. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:24, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

@Jayron32 Thank you for removing the Notability template. I was almost through checking that all the citations were in order when half of the article was removed and some of the citations we had just timestamped.

I can't put citations for the remaining items that need them without it essentially being a revert. They deleted the birth registry citation, the the YouTube community page citation where Ren writes the month and day of his birth, all of the Justin Hawkins YouTube Interview timestamped citations from the Early life section. I was under the impression they were okay. was I wrong?

The Big Push section was removed and the two sources that the information was from were cited. I'm confused on that removal.

I agree with the discography change Kiwatts (talk) 09:21, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I also felt the Personal section was relevant. It covered the illness that impacted being signed with Sony and the suicide of his friend that impacted his view that there needs to be changes to the mental health industry. Kiwatts (talk) 09:27, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

The edits to the first paragraph that had he was a producer, busker, genres etc. had a secondary source so I am confused by this to. Kiwatts (talk) 09:31, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I take back the fact that it was cited. It should have been this citation. I thought that we the one I used. It should be this one. https://staticdive.com/2023/01/06/ren/ Kiwatts (talk) 10:30, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

The author used to write for Billboard magazine Kiwatts (talk) 10:36, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

This is the YouTube community page source. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqq3VcwPGseErHUa0-xLInQ/community?lb=Ugkx4cp_dY_K-vWuwXRKUA8FuN3nF4GUn8Bo Kiwatts (talk) 09:37, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

If it is that I cited the Big Push section wrong please let me know what I should do Kiwatts (talk) 12:28, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Big Push with Old and New citations -Will this work

2017-2022 The Big Push

In addition to his solo career, Ren was a member of The Big Push, a Brighton based busking band. Glenn Chambers was the drummer and Ren, Romain Axisa, Gorran Kendall were the frontmen. They each took turns singing, and played different roles when performing.[1][2] They wrote their own material in addition to playing cover tunes[2][5] and enjoyed that busking gave them instant feedback on their songs.[5][6] They performed for Live Nation's North American Lockdown Lives Virtual Tour.[4] The group recorded their live performances and uploaded them to YouTube.[1][3][5] Some of their videos have gone viral[1][3] and by September of 2022 their channel had over 50 million views.[1] Their 2021 UK Tour sold out.[1][2][5]

1. Brighton Dome. "The Big Push / What's On / Brighton Dome". brightondome.org. Retrieved 30 January 2023. https://brightondome.org/event/30090/the_big_push/

2. Keirl, Sam (28 January 2021). "The Big Push Interview". The Bodega. Retrieved 4 February 2023. https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2021/06/28/brighton-based-rockers-the-big-push-announce-ep-prior-to-sold-out-uk-tour/

3. Conway-Flood, Kate. "THE BIG PUSH - BRIGHTON'S BIGGEST BUSKING BAND". Dscord. Retrieved 22 March 2023 https://dscvrd.co/noise/the-big-push-brighton-s-biggest-busking-band

4. (16 April 2020)"The Big Push Announce North American ‘Lockdown Live’ Virtual Tour". That Eric Alper. Retrieved 4 February 2023 https://www.thatericalper.com/2020/04/16/the-big-push-announce-north-american-lockdown-live-virtual-tour/?doing_wp_cron=1684009336.9183669090270996093750

5. Clay, William "The Big Push – interview".  BN1 MAGAZINE.  Retrieved 22 March 2023 https://www.bn1magazine.co.uk/the-big-push-interview/

6. Olivia, Reese (30 June 2021) "The Big Push - Can Do, Will Do". Highwire Magazine Retrieved 22 March 2023 https://highwire-magazine.com/2021/06/30/the-big-push-can-do-will-do/ Kiwatts (talk) 20:57, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

This line was not in the paragraph that was removed. I just added it.

They performed for Live Nation's North American Lockdown Lives Virtual Tour.. [4]

Would they qualify for their own write up? Would they be considered Notable? Kiwatts (talk) 21:14, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

hi! Maybe you've seen this scholarly article? I haven't read It yet,but surely it's a reliable source for whatever it says about Ren.

https://www.insidehighered.com/opinion/views/intellectual-affairs/2023/05/26/every-brain-needs-music?fbclid=IwAR1490QCupspc-7FiJoIIq5Zd1vC89pJSn96X0HbQomfupNIQCTYiz3Lti8 107.3.140.122 (talk) 22:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a tutorial on placement of citations? I have looked but haven't found one. Kiwatts (talk) 21:36, 13 May 2023 (UTC

References

The Big Push

Ren has said he would like to reunite the band and their statement on 31 Aug 2022 leaves it open. One member in van lifeing across Europe currently and he is in Calgary.

The post said

“The Big Push, for now, has come to the end of the road, logistically because of being in different countries, personal matters and the unpredictable and sometimes difficult nature of life it would be impossible to carry on and do it the justice it deserves.." It leaves the door open. Kiwatts (talk) 09:27, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Didn't he say he would not mind playing with the guys again? I guess it would be a case of what they will be doing in the future. Ren seems to be in Canada for at least the next 3 months and being as his career is taking off who knows if he will have time to be in the band again. Plus who knows where the other guys will be in the future. I just changed the Big Push section to past tense because at the moment they are not together and we don't know if they will be again. Have to wait and see. Dovonex (talk) 10:44, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Talking of his bands, should we give Trick the Fox their own small section? Some other editor was complaining that the early life and trick the fox section could be hard to understand for some people. There is more stuff to add about Trick the fox, if needed. Dovonex (talk) 10:47, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm fine with the tense change. It makes sense. One of your editing comments said "past tense, maybe they will get back together?" It seemed like you were asking the question so I answered here. there isn't a way to answer in the history section.

As far as Early life and Trick the Fox, they were separate originally, but so much content was removed that only 1 sentence remained and when Sirfurboy reworked everything they combined them. Much of the content is back now and I will set it back up the way it used to be. I will have to do most of it later tonight but I did start.

At the time the entire entry for Ren was in danger of being deleted due to issues with notability. It was more important to focus on showing Ren was notable, not why certain portions were meaningful and should be included. There weren't a lot of sources back then and it was harder to show the importance of what was being removed because you can only use what has been written by someone else, you can't self report. It also wasn't clear why things were important because I hadn't finished writing the article when all this happened.. The fact that most of my material came directly from Ren, a primary source, was a big issue. The reasoning was If he was notable there should be secondary sources. Read the Topics titled Massive Over citation and Notability and Notability and you will understand.

There are things I need to wait to add back until they are mentioned why they are important, like his mother being a vocal coach. Even if she didn't teach him, he probably absorbed the concepts without even realizing it. He is a sponge and it's why it all comes so naturally to him without even thinking. He studied vocals online by watching Chris Liepe's YouTube channel, and likely others, to help him perfect his craft. Kiwatts (talk) 19:25, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I see you changed the discovered when he was busking to when they were busking. I think in his Hawkins interview he said when he was busking. He certainly did busking on his own when he was in Bath because he mentions it on his Twitter, he also busked with the band. Not sure he mentions when he was discovered in the coffee with Ren youtube vid but it is a source for that statement now. Dovonex (talk) 19:56, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

He also mentioned it in Coffee with Ren and I believe I have other sources. I have to go right now but feel free to change it back until it's sorted out. The band was originally a duo. It wasn't until 15 June 2012 that Tom joined them. They recorded at Sanctuary studios. https://www.thesanctuarystudio.co.uk/trick-the-fox/ Kiwatts (talk) 20:06, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that is Eric Appapoulay studio but did Ren record with the band there and by himself? Have to look into it. Dovonex (talk) 20:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Interesting thing in your link there, "The new two piece are Ren Gill & Charlie Fowler, Bath buskers with an amazing sound." Would suggest that they were discovered in Bath not Brighton? Dovonex (talk) 20:13, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

OK, I scanned Trick the Fox facebook and it seems they were making an album and some of those tracks ended up on Ren's Album and even Jenny's Tale was recorded by them, which Ren released later by himself. So I guess they were both discovered busking in Bath and signed to Sony. Phew. :) Dovonex (talk) 20:35, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Also, did his solo career start in 2015 or 2010 when he was signed to Sony? He seems to have been recording an album without Trick the Fox because many of those songs he recorded with Sony ended up on the Freckled Angels album. Dovonex (talk) 20:07, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

The Big Push statement quoted above, states personal issues, logistics and the general nature of life as the reasons for the break up. In the article it is put down to Ren's health issues. The source stated for that doesn't seem all that reliable as it has some false information in other parts (like Ren moving home to Brighton, not Wales, when he was very sick). So I don't think it is valid to state Ren's health issues as the only reason or even the main reason for the end of the band. Mackey79 (talk) 17:29, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I changed it to in part. The Big Push statement says personal issues, I would guess that would include Ren's illness, it also says logistics, again Ren is in Canada for his illness and the difficult nature of life could also be Ren's illness. As for the source, it is a kosher real magazine, it is a better source than 95% of the sources on the Ren wiki page, that it has incorrect information in it(going home to Brighton instead of Wales) is irrelevant as many other sources used on this page also have incorrect info in them. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:C0BF:8F0A:9794:5E60 (talk) 17:43, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

As you say yourself, you "would guess" the personal issues include Ren's health but that would still be guessing or assuming since they didn't specifically say so. And at least one of the other guys in the band has also been travelling so logistics is not just referring to Ren's trip to Canada. As Wikipedia is supposed to have encyclopaedic information, we shouldn't write anything based on our assumptions. And this is not a personal attack on your edits, just a reminder to check other sources for stuff said in magazine articles. They may have been making assumptions as well. Mackey79 (talk) 18:04, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I never wrote anything based on my assumptions. I included information from a real magazine in the article, like other people who edit wikipedia everyday do from various newspapers, magazine etc. No one said logistics was just referring to Ren, you assumed that. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:C0BF:8F0A:9794:5E60 (talk) 18:14, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Every magazine article is still not necessarily a reliable source. The Fahrenheit article doesn't mention the writer or any sources for the info. It is definitely not based on speaking directly with Ren so it looks like it was put together from various Internet sources, probably including this Wikipedia site. So the writer may have assumed that Ren's health was one of the reasons (which may be true but the band or Ren haven't said so). Mackey79 (talk) 18:25, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I really wasn't going to work on the article anymore but I will give you a source that lines up more closely with the bands actual post.

https://www.facebook.com/thebigpushband/posts/pfbid0dK49zPuPQEo4in19RqrRewRRWTjA54fPwa2tjY5HJi5cV18XVTQTsdSrN1r1uAhzl

"The Big Push, for now has come to the end of the road, logistically because of being in different countries, personal matters and the unpredictable and sometimes difficult nature of life it would be impossible to carry on and do it the justice it deserves."

The break up isn't because his illness symptoms/ health issues are causing the Big Push to break up like they did with Trick the Fox. The illness itself didn't make it physically hard for him to continue preforming. It would be more accurate to say Ren is in Canada. That lines up with being in different countries.

Every one is assuming the personal matters are Ren's health. The trip to Canada was planned 2 years before he went and he was publicly talking about it and had a go Fund me started long before the break up. The personal matters might actually apply to one of the other three band members.

I would leave out saying anything directly about it being about his health. It is just like the Sony dumping him issue. Plus readers will jump to their own conclusions but you don't need to do it for them. Just because someone said it and others repeat it doesn't mean it's accurate. Also, it's better to let the reader form their own opinion instead of giving them one.

It would be best to say -

In 2022 they announced their next concert would be their last and said being in different countries, personal matters,and the vagaries of life were the reasons why.

This is the article to cite https://www.themusicman.uk/the-big-push/

This is also from the article. You can mention the last time they played together. Then you wouldn't need to start with In 2022.

The Big Push busked together on the streets of Brighton for the last time on 14 Dec 2022. Ren and Romain Axisa have subsequently released solo songs, which can be found on The Big Push Facebook page and on streaming services. Kiwatts (talk) 20:41, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

From your link: They cited being in different countries, personal matters (Ren suffers from Lyme disease) and the vagaries of life. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:C0BF:8F0A:9794:5E60 (talk) 20:55, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I know. I did read it. That is why I said to leave out saying anything directly about his health. The parentheses indicates it wasn't part of the original statement. In this case it's the author's assumption, Just like everyone assuming and writing he went home to Brighton when he was so sick he was bedridden. Just because people put their own spin on things and write about it doesn't mean it's accurate.

Remember the Biography guidelines. We have the original statement and know that someone has put their own opinion in. We know it might not be accurate much like other things that are written. Do perpetuate opinions that might not be accurate. They may be but they also may not be. That is when you leave it out.

We don't want to use the original statement as a source. There is a secondary source. (I tried using it long ago and it was removed so don't try putting it back. That will be a problem just like when you added all the discography back that had been removed.) Kiwatts (talk) 21:42, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Don't you think that Ren moving to Canada because of his health issues has something to do with the Big Push breaking up? Anyway I don't see a problem with what I put in the article and I even changed it a bit and it is secondary sourced to an actual real magazine not a blog. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:C0BF:8F0A:9794:5E60 (talk) 22:14, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 21 August 2023

Ren (British musician) → Ren Gill – Just gauging if there is any support for moving this article to the name Ren Gill (currently a redirect here) per WP:NATDIS, while he does primarily use his monymonous name "Ren", the last name is well known and well reported, and Wikipedia guidance says to prefer the use of natural language disambiguation over parentheticals. We have an available way to do that, just use the last name. Jayron32 15:37, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Support Parham wiki (talk) 17:19, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

No I don't see any reason to change it. He is known as Ren, everyone calls him Ren.