Template talk:Rise of nationalism in the Balkans

The reason why I have deleted the use of the term Macedonia in this template is because Macedonia is a region, not a state. If you wish to describe the Slavomacedonian national awakening, please do so using a different, not provocative manner for Greek Macedonians. Kapnisma 08:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Open to suggestions, using self-identifying terms. - Francis Tyers · 09:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

My concern is the use of the term. You can't use this term only for Slavomacedonians, it creates confusion. You can rename it National Awakening of Slavs in Macedonia, or National Awakening of Slavomacedonians. And since there is a debate on this matter by insisting on to use this term in this template, you are clearly ignoring the views of Greek Macedonians Kapnisma 09:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I would never ignore you beautiful people! - Francis Tyers · 09:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I've changed it to "National awakening of Macedonia (ethnic Macedonians)". This removes the risk that we are talking about Macedonians, and makes it explicitly Macedonians. - Francis Tyers · 09:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I like your sence of humour.

I would like to clarify my view on the subject. My problem is not the name of these ethnic groups, my problem is the use of the term Macedonia only for Slavomacedonians. In this template you include all the nations in Balkans by their homelands Greece for Greeks, Bulgaria for Bulgarians, etc. When you write Macedonia you obviously consider that their homeland is Macedonia. That thing is insulting for me, Greek Macedonians, Greeks. Kapnisma 09:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I consider that the homeland of the Macedonians is Macedonia. I also consider that the homeland of the Macedonians is Macedonia. I consider that both the Macedonians and the Macedonians live in a region called (for better or worse), Macedonia.

While you are talking about "being insulted" (which is a popular pastime in the Balkans), you must realise that just as you consider "Macedonians" in reference to Macedonians insulting, so the epithet "Slavomacedonians" is considered insulting by the Macedonians. I don't like insulting people, so I use Macedonians to refer to both. - Francis Tyers · 10:14, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly! Macedonia is a region which includes many Macedonians Greek ones, Slav ones, Bulgarian ones, etc. The problem starts when someone tries to use this term to describe not a nationality, but a state. Slavomacedonians have a state that self identifies as RoM, while is officially recognised as FYRoM, untill a solution on the dispute is found. When you describe their state as Macedonia you are not objective, you are clearly supporting their views and ignoring Greek ones.

Kapnisma 10:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

When you say "officially recognised", you mean officially recognised by Greece. Which is fair enough, you're from Greece. There is no ambiguity in the name Republic of Macedonia, after all there is only one Republic of Macedonia, just as there is only one Greek Region of Macedonia. When I call their country Macedonia, I'm using the common short-form English name for the country. When I call their country Macedonia, I'm using the term they use to describe it themselves. Just as when I call Macedonia, Macedonia, I'm using the both the common English name for the region of Greece, and the name that they use themselves. I have no interest in using a name which the people to which it is applied do not want. So I'll go on using Macedonians to describe both, without ascribing to, or supporting either the Macedonians POV or the Macedonians POV. - Francis Tyers · 11:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

When I say "officially recognised", I mean EU, UN, NATO, etc. All I am saying is that since the name of the state is not permanent and under negotiation, by calling their country Macedonia promotes their POV. I'm not asking to use Greek POV instead, but a temporary name suggested by the international community. Kapnisma 12:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I' ve also seen some minor changes that you have done with the term Slavomacedonians (usage as slur, etc), while I agree with them I'm expecting that you also do the same for the term Macedonian when used to decribe Slavomacedonians (that it is offensive for Greek Macedonians, etc) since you seem to believe in neutrality. Kapnisma 12:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I did as you reasonably requested. Regarding "official", NATO is a military alliance, largely irrelevant. The UN and EU are varyingly official depending on how you much faith you place in them. In the end, I'll use what is common in my country, and in my language, which is Macedonia and Macedonians for both. The phrase "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is a mouthful, and completely useless in everyday speech, "EFF-WHY-ARE-OH-EMM" is equally as unwieldy. The people I know find it funny rather than anything else, like a name designed by committee. The Greeks I know call the country either Macedonia, or Skopje (one guy even calls it "the country that everyone except Greece calls Macedonia"). The English I know call the country Macedonia, this may be "Macedonian POV", but it is (unfortunately for you I suppose) also common English usage. Don't presume that I'm supporting the extremist nationalists among them, I'm just using the most common term in my language. - Francis Tyers · 12:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey guys. I followed all three discussions (your talk pages and this one). The anti-Epsilonist solution decided by the Wikipedian Ethnicist Supporting Committee of Keen Balkanians Aiming to Destruction (W.E.S.U.C.K.B.A.D. for short) is the one you'll see on top of the page if you click FYROM and it comprises of 3 words. Now you may never hear that "solution" from a Greek's mouth, but we got 2.6 million^[1] reasons for it, plus some of us kinda hate to be robbed off our history^[2][3] and our land.^[4] NikoSilver 15:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

You are plain wrong. User:Macrakis is Greek and he uses Republic of Macedonia. I know other Greeks who do too :)

"This is an international encyclopedia written in English. "Skopje" is almost never used in English to refer to the RoM; after all, it is the name of a city. FYROM was a compromise in some international organizations where Greece in effect has a veto. Greece does not have a veto on the Wikipedia. And it is not true that "everybody has to use" the name FYROM. The US government, for example, has used the name "Macedonia" since November 2004 (not even Republic of Macedonia), as you can see for example in the CIA factbook, the US Embassy web site, etc. Almost all international reference works use "Macedonia". "Republic of Macedonia" is a good and stable compromise. --Macrakis 23:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)"

Try harder :P - Francis Tyers · 16:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

So you both say that you like the fact that people have to know all this in order not confuse this with this or this or this or this; and that with that or that or that; and these with these or these or these or these or these or these; thereby not to help promote the idea that these are not the descendants of these (or even him^[1], who also slaughtered them, who were the major ancestors of them -probably in an amok against his own), and that doesn't sound at all like that, and this is not an occupied territory of this by this and this? I call that oppression of the unaware... Can you imagine? Instead of disambiguating it with one (ANY) word, we have to explain all that to the poor uninformed... Ah, I forgot: 99% of those uninformed don't give a shit, so they naturally assume that these who speak that and live in there, are the descendants of these that spoke that and should of course live there (so naturally those who support this are right...)

PS. Try to understand what I mean without mouse-hovering, because that's what we get down to without proper disambiguation (and that's how the minds of all people work when they are constantly used to face e.g. these speaking that and living there, descending from them)... NikoSilver 17:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)