Talk:Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy

United States Collaboration

Is well known that many bussiness men and bankers help the Reich financing the rise and take of power of Hitler and the construction of its industrial and militar empire. This aid was not something atypical, it was one of the fundamental reasons Hitler could get his country out from a Crisis and a post-war era without problems. Harriman, Bush, Sullivan & Cromwell, Kuhn and Loeb families and banks and the General Motors of JP Morgan, IBM, Rockefeller's Standard Oil, and Ford Motors companies help the economical grow of the Reich substantialy Someone who speaks better English than me could talk about it? See: Anthony Sutton

Switzerland

This country is not mentioned yet but is very important to know the total collaboration of Swiss banks in the removal of holocaust victims bank accounts and other indirect collaboration with the nazi regime. That's because Hitler didnt invade Switzerland. The neutral nation was not so neutral. Nestle also collaborates from Switzerland with the nazis.

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Collaboration in Poland

It's truly interesting to see the country that produced collaborators only on the individual level has the most prominent notice in this article. This is truly astonishing. I was striving to find well-known names of Polish collaborators but was capable to find only 3 deserving any attention. I've included these individuals along with the related pictures. CheersGizzyCatBella (talk) 04:22, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

I’ve closely reviewed some references provided in the Caveats part of Poland section and regrettably, have to say that some don't match writing that was inserted. I’ve fixed some of it but now I’m contemplating if we really need Caveats segment at all? This division has been created very recently and doesn't deliver any worthy data to the article. Any thoughts?GizzyCatBella (talk) 05:11, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Feel free to incorporate it into the main section body. François Robere (talk) 14:02, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

This is wrong. The whole paragraph is how Poland was innocent and provided resistance, when the title of the article clearly says Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II and that is what the whole section should be focused on. With all due respect, it should be completely rewritten.Ernio48 (talk) 19:23, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Inaccurate addition

In the Poland section of the article the sentence recently introduced reads: ”The question of Polish complicity in the Holocaust has proved controversial in Poland itself” It is backed by citing 2 media articles. One from the American LA Times: http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jun/13/local/me-9923 and one from the Israeli Ynet news: https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4745850,00.html How do these 2 foreign media publicists prove Polish "complicity" in the Holocaust being controversial in Poland itself? There is not a word about it and I have read the articles entirely. On top of that, it is linked to the expression “controversial” to "Polish death camp" controversy article. This doesn’t make any sense and needs to be corrected.

Related discussion can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:François_Robere#Let’s_rest_a_little_Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II GizzyCatBella (talk) 07:26, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

The wording has been changed from what it originally was, by yourself, and François Robere (talk · contribs). I find it perplexing that one would take this to talk in that regard since you made some of the changes, but that's just me, I guess. The wording was originally attempting to be supported by the source, and the changes moved it away from that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II&diff=next&oldid=825865100

First version:

Indeed, there is widespread denial of any complicity of ethnic Poles in the Holocaust

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II&diff=next&oldid=825917115

Second version, (which confused The LA Times with Bloomberg):

Some media outlets such as Bloomberg and BBC suggested a widespread denial of any complicity of ethnic Poles in the Holocaust

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II&diff=next&oldid=825865100

Third version:

It is believed by many that the Poles are complicit in the Holocaust

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II&type=revision&diff=826057499&oldid=826052393

Fourth version which added the Ynet link:

The question of Polish complicity in the Holocaust has proved controversial in Poland itself,

This answers why it doesn't connect to the current wording.

R9tgokunks :✡ 08:34, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that’s is apparent to me also why the fourth version developed to something bizarre as this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II&diff=826056976&oldid=826052393

Every time I fix it, soon it is being turned into something different, without citing proper references.

So this time again, I’ve modified it to reflect the sources supplied:

The issue of Polish collaboration with the Nazis and complicity in the murder of Jews during and after the Holocaust has been addressed by the global media and historians alike, including Poland itself...

I also correlated the Kielce Pogrom as well as Jedwabne Pogrom into the entry. And here is my plea to you people, if you choose to modify it again please, please support it by proper references. GizzyCatBella (talk) 09:59, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

@R9tgokunks: I'm certain in my original wording, I've only softened it up to try and get everyone in consensus. We have sources suggesting denial on all levels, from the commoner on the street to government officials and researchers in key positions. If this isn't "denial" I don't know what is, but User:GizzyCatBella seems to prefer we didn't mention any of it as such. François Robere (talk) 14:12, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Look R9tgokunks, I’ll allow myself to be straightforward here.

No, you haven’t softened anything, neither you achieved everybody

consensus, nor introduced any proof that Polish “complicity" in the

Holocaust is being controversial in Poland itself.

All you have performed is a bold reversal to the bizarre phrasing. Consider reviewing the references given again and I'll get back here at the later time.GizzyCatBella (talk) 16:20, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

1. Please indent your text properly on talk pages.

2. You're not following who writes what.

3. You say there's no controversy. What is the common perception as you understand it, then? François Robere (talk) 17:08, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I’m thoroughly explaining that the fact that there is a level of controversy surrounding alleged Polish complicity in the Holocaust throughout the World, especially within Israel and Jewish American groups, but in Poland itself this is not an issue AT ALL. Poland at at-large denies any involvement in the Holocaust other than sporadic acts of violence on the individual level. GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:32, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

That's exactly the point about Poland, and hugely ironic at that. Nevertheless, you bring us back to my original phrasing: "Indeed, there is widespread denial of any complicity of ethnic Poles in the Holocaust". Are we now in agreement? François Robere (talk) 18:07, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

No François, you see by wording it this way the entry implies that Poland denies without any evidence an indisputable fact of Poland’s collaboration in the Holocaust. But in reality, these allegations are being challenged by Polish historians who support that view by their own historical study. GizzyCatBella (talk) 18:49, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

First - no, it's not. I've used the phrase "any complicity" rather than "the complicity", which is neutral. Second, I provided multiple recent sources disputing your scant early sources that claim the opposite, plus sources that explain how denial and revisionism are manifested in Poland and why research is so lacking. You've provided nothing to counter any of it. If I were less of a gentleman I would call you out on your own denial - "it didn't happen, but don't say I said so. And by the way - it's Only Israelis, Americans and Jews who claim otherwise, but here's a Jewish-American source that agrees with me, so I'll take it." François Robere (talk) 19:17, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella: You provided two 2003 with limited scopes (one about Warsaw, one about post-war events) to contradict a 2013 sources with a broader scope (multiple areas, across several years). This suggests both WP:RS AGE may be an issues, as well as WP:RSCONTEXT. That's why I asked for specific quotes or page numbers that show contradictions. It shouldn't be so difficult, as we're dealing with numbers orders of magnitude apart. François Robere (talk) 19:43, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I appreciate you being a gentleman François :) but I insist that

the original wording was misleading, I believe unintentionally

but it was. Anyways, I think we should take a break from updating

this article because I'm sensing some anger developing between

you and some other editors. You guys have very strong opinions

on this sensitive issue, so I somehow understand that. That's, why I think the pause is needed to cool things down.GizzyCatBella (talk) 19:52, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

It is a strong subject backed by strong evidence, from historical studies to very current affair, and they all scream "denial" for anyone who's not deeply in it already (a law? seriously? what normative government with nothing to hide does that?). There's also that magic word we haven't mentioned - "antisemitism" - which is prevalent in Poland since days immemorial, and underlies all of the issues this article is about, but less directly relevant to some of the arguments made here. At any rate, I'll leave that sentence for the night; in the meanwhile tell me how do you prefer to address denial in a non-judgemental way. "Addressed by global media" and the like is non-informative. By the way - my intent is and was to incorporate the "caveats" section in the rest of the section, which seemed apologetic to begin with, but some consensus has to be reached first about this content. François Robere (talk) 20:04, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

About "prominent": I usually agree (in fact, in a previous revision I've removed some titles you gave to some people), but in this case there's a reason for that: You're quoting the Schudrich in his capacity as Chief Rabbi, which I contend isn't in a position to convincingly refute specific claims made by Grabowski et al. We don't need the "prominent", but we don't need the Rabbi either. François Robere (talk) 20:04, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Tag

@E-960: It's a 2003 book about Warsaw that supposedly refutes a 2013 one about Poland - it's legitimate to ask for a clarification. Also, your reversal undid more content than just the tag. François Robere (talk) 18:07, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

That's why right in the article text you have this statement "...disputed by prominent researcher Efraim Zuroff." So, the sources are valid, and the differences in estimates are highlighted. --E-960 (talk) 18:19, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Learn to read, man. Zuroff disputes the Rabbi's statement, not the 2003 book. And you removed the Zuroff reference when you undid the revision. François Robere (talk) 18:40, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Pls read the criteria for a Dubious tag, because you are misusing it. --E-960 (talk) 18:56, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

GizzyCatBella it is clear that François Robere is messing with the article text, by shorting some section and placing dubious tags on legitimate sources he does not like, at this point the behavior is becoming disruptive and appears borders on POV pushing. --E-960 (talk) 19:21, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

"Shorting some sections"? I didn't remove any unnecessary information, and the tag in question is there so we can keep the other editor's sources. If I had removed material without any consideration you would've had a case, but thus far I kept everything both GizzyCatBella and yourself added. François Robere (talk) 19:29, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I even sent you a "thank you" after you reviewed a change and added a translation. I'm surprised you're finding this an issue and not the two vandalism attempts from earlier this evening. Rude! François Robere (talk) 19:32, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I don't think I am. I believe the other editor may have misrepresented the source with no ill intent, which corresponds to "an editor's interpretation of that source" in Template:Dubious. If you prefer any other template take your pick, just keep the reason parameter. François Robere (talk) 19:29, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Section

@E-960: Why did you undo this] change? The two paragraphs are about the same body and some of text is redundant, plus two separate citations of the same book. François Robere (talk) 19:35, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Seriously, The Judenrat and Jewish Ghetto Police are two separate entities, why else are there two separate Wikipedia article about them? --E-960 (talk) 19:39, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't a source for Wikipedia... If you want, we can merge the two articles tomorrow, I have some spare time on 17:00.

Both articles make clear the connection between the two, together administering the daily affairs of their community: "The Judenräte also directed the Jewish police" and "auxiliary police units organized... by local Judenrat councils". This results in redundant material between the two paragraphs, not to mention generally bad style. What's your particular issue with the revision I made? François Robere (talk) 19:49, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

No, just stop with the manipulative language, I'm not using Wikipedia as a source, and there is no need to merge the two paragraphs because each discusses a separate topic, one Judenrat and the other Jewish Ghetto Police. --E-960 (talk) 20:02, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

What manipulative language?

The articles themselves maintain that one was an extension of the other, and both are discussed here in the same contexts and in similar capacities, which again results in redundancy and bad style. Do you want specific examples? François Robere (talk) 20:08, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

PLEA TO ALL LATELY INVOLVED EDITORS

I would like to appeal for some cooldown period and brief departure of your valuable experience and enthusiasm towards editing other articles. Sadly, I'm sensing some hostility developing among you that may lead to undesirable conflict and inevitable administrative intervention. Thank you guys for your time and see you here in the future. GizzyCatBella (talk) 20:10, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

• Do you know how to slow down a tsunami (?), because I don't. Fortunately, we do have a WP:BRD rule here in Wikipedia meant to alert other Wikipedians to extreme partisan editing going on. I used the WP:BRD principle to direct your attention to WP:REDFLAG material inserted into this article lately, which I described in my summaries as follows: "all of that "orgy" is utter nonsense → there was no "study", just brief mentions lumping Auxiliary Police Battalions with the locals of all possible ethnic makeup, WP:RECENTISM, hostile commentaries from dailies without research... wrong article" and later: → "another hostile case ready for WP:ANI and spilling out from the "Polish death camp" controversy battleground". — Did any of you actually researched further the following statement in this article? "A 2014 study by historian Jan Grabowski found that in regards to Polish cooperation, "there were no bystanders." His study purports that around 200,000 Jews were kiled directly, or indirectly by Poles during the Holocaust." — Do you know what 200,000 means? There were 110,000 Polish Jews the Lwów Ghetto, in Tarnopol: 20,000 in Stanislawów: 30,000. The author is probably quoting numbers established by the Holocaust historians for the grand total of Jewish victims of shooting operations carried out by indigenous Auxiliary Police Battalions, estimated by Alexander Statiev at 150,000 Jews in Volhynia. Sloppy workmanship in the brief introduction there, with preposterous results in here. — Further information: Statiev Alexander (2010), The Soviet Counterinsurgency in the Western Borderlands Cambridge University Press. page 69. Poeticbent talk 21:11, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

— Actually, if you read very closely that little paragraph in his book to see how he arrived at that number, you will invariably realize that that number is a fabrication with no source of any kind beyond his personal interpretation of someone else's comment. Poeticbent talk 21:29, 17 February 2018 (UTC)