Talk:Romanian Orthodox Church

This article is very large, but it is terribly biased, with so many items coming from what appear to be a very nationalistic view. I will try my best to made it NPOV, but I ask for everyone's help. Crculver 12:34, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It appears to me to be a hodgepodge :) Bogdan | Talk 13:35, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

All of these, in conclusion, might explain the huge success of Christianity in the Romanian regions, which may demonstrate the very first attested organization of Christianity for a complete nation in Europe.

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According to an old theory... However, the weight of evidence, from archaeological to linguistical to ecclesiastical history...

I can't believe this. The article is claiming that that the Dacians were already Christianized when they were conquered by the Romans. That's original. :-) Bogdan | Talk 19:03, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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However, the weight of evidence, from archaeological to linguistical to ecclesiastical history, points to a different story, especially since Saint Paul and Silvanus first preached into the Miniature Macedonian Rome of Caesarea Philippi and only later in Rome proper.

An impressive number of toponyms, ethnographical material and the most ancient church tradition - also attested in writing by Eusebios since the 4th century follow Saint Andrew, the Apostle of Dacia and Scythia Minor. All of these could not possibly have been maintained in situ in a non-Christian organized Dacia: If the Christian faith were only brought there by Romans or Roman prisoners rather than growing locally as a grass root phenomenon, then only a few early Christian remains would be on record. In fact, the Roman army deserted north-of-Danube, Left Bank Dacian provinces in corpore starting as soon as the Goths (who were christianized only later) invaded it, around 240 AD. There are more recent historians who maintain that Christianity became widespread much later, with the Byzantine troops of the Eastern Roman Empire then with the extension of Byzantine Romania. Others still point to the Caucasian Georgia or Iberia, and the Lesser Armenia as the first Christian countries. All of them fail to explain the unique liturgical vocabulary of Romanian which could only have been acquired at the very sources of Early Christianity. Cunningly, even Edward Gibbon, as early as the 1780s, vindicates an early Christianization beyond the Left Bank of the Lower Danube.

After 297, on the territory of the Roman province of Scythia Minor (now Dobrudja, between the Right Bank of the Lower Danube and Tomis on the western shores of the Black Sea), martyrs of the Christian faith are legion.

Had Dacians received Christianity as religio illicita only via the crypto-Christians among the Roman troops (therefore after the Dacian Wars ended in 106, and before the 276 Roman military retreat) the deep, lasting and grass root organization of the Early Romanian Orthodox Church would remain unexplained. Truth of the matter, as always, must be searched within a larger body of knowledge:

I don't know what do with these. :-) Bogdan | Talk 19:19, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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Was Father Dumitru Staniloae really regarded widely as the undisputed greatest Christian theologian of the 20th Century? Should there be quotes from all the denominational figures? Or perhaps "one of the greatest" could be better? (I'm not editing the article as I have no knowledge of who Staniloae is) --Whitti 01:36, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)

Not NPOV and/or factual wrong

Moved from the article:

Factors involved in Christianization of Dacians

Neighboring the Roman Empire well before the birth of Jesus Christ, Dacians were organized religiously in a system that impressed the authors of antiquity, from Plato to Saint Justin Martyr and Quintus Florus Septimius Tertullianus - the famous Carthaginian church father from the late 2nd century. In Adversus Iudaeos, Tertullianus literally and explicitly mentioned Dacians as followers of Jesus Christ.

Much unlike others who were converted later and sometimes only "upside-down" - by force, starting with their military leaders (peoples extant or only arriving in Europe after the birth of Jesus Christ), Dacians were not migratory hordes. Although they had that proven military might usually associated by the Roman authors with the epithet of barbarians, Dacians also followed a well established centralized authority, maintained a continuous record of spiritual tradition, exerted harmonious systems of trade and thrived on self-sustained economics.

All of these must have prepared conversion to Christianity in a solid, lasting, and now very well proven manner.

Rich Romanian folkloric ethnographical and traditional material and some extremely rich or unique archaeological records demonstrate a solid, organized, and widespread Christian life at the Lower Danube well in advance of the first ecumenical synods. From the times of ethnogenesis, the Eastern Roman people of Romania grew in parallel (and indeed symbiosis) with Orthodox Christianity. Notably, the Old Church Slavonic and Gothic Runes alphabets have been developed north of the Lower Danube by missionaries of the New Rome, to help Christianize the Goths and the Slavic invaders of that Roman Empire limes. Complete Christianization of the Slavic peoples, with help from the Daco-Romanian population, gradually succeeded towards the officially recorded year, later in the 10th century, three hundred years after their invasion of the Byzantine Empire.

oldest known ? Bu whom ? By Wikipedissimi ?

In fact there are hundreds perhaps even thousands of churches older than the one you illustrate, by an indiscriminate, uncritical cut and paste "process" of thinking. A few dozen are still being researched today by the competent archeologists. Look under the fundations of extant Churches and you will always find older ones. The Orthodox are always at the foundation! Even I could quote you a few dozen here below, with the approximate date of foundation :

333 Beroes - oldest in SE Europe Piatra Frecăţei (judeţul Tulcea)
353 Callatis - Mangalia, (judeţul Constanţa)
357 Dinogetia - Gârvan (judeţul Tulcea)
358 Troesmis - Igliţa-Turcoaia, (judeţul Tulcea)
358 Axiopolis - Hinog lângă Cernavoda (judeţul Constanţa)
358 Constantiana - Capul Dolojman
359 Noviodunum - Isaccea
361 Ulmetum - Pantelimon
364 Ibida - Slava Rusă singura din Scythia Minor cu trei altare spre răsărit
365 Isvoarele
367 Niculiţel (on this very page, next illustrations)
369 Densuş - oldest north of lower Danube still in use today
398 Slaveni – (judeţul Olt)
412 Sarmizegetusa (judeţul Hunedoara)
457 Porolissum - Moigrad (judeţul Salaj).
435 Morisena - Cenad (monastery)
449 Sucidava - Celei (judeţul Timiş)
860 Dăbâca
900 Corbii de piatră

1177 Bodrogu Vechi (Hodoş) Ciala 1057 Dinogetia - Gârvan (judeţul Tulcea) - reconstructed 1066 Alba Iulia (actual catholic cathedral was built upon it) 1168 Drobeta - Turnu Severin 1304 "Biserica din deal" din Ieud

Before the independence, "prea luminatul, blagocestivul şi de Hristos iubitorul, răposatul Io Radu Negru Voivod la leat 6800 (1292)" had a document mentioning Câmpulung as capital. How would you figure a capital without (at least a Metropolitan) Church?

1370 Biserica metropolitană din Severin, sub Vladislav Vlaicu

To your satisfaction, Avars, Bulgars and their Slavic slaves destroyed, between 525 and 900, a great number. That doesn't mean there are not older churches than the one in the misleading German picture.

Bibliography? Where should you start, really ? For instance, read the Apostles, read Tertullianus, read the published local folklore, visit the places, read some Church History, read some Romanian history, and then (and only then) please come back here for a really useful, factual contribution. These are indispensable passages. Without them and with more of your scissors, Wikipedia becomes a Fictionary :O)

You are however right in at least one aspect - not far from Turnu Severin, at Schela Cladovei, you have the oldest shrine, with a clear inscription beneath it, and the first stable city in Europe, some 11,967 years old !

Bogdane, de ce desfigurezi articolul despre Biserica strămoşească?

Tu eşti de-al nostru, sau în solda Wikidioţilor? Tu denigrezi istoria patriei sau o distilezi doar, ca să "cadreze" cu masturbaţia intelectuală a "maeştrilor gânditori" de la Bomipedia? Nu uita că tu eşti cine eşti, iar nu o pocitanie fără identitate, ca ei, pentru că anonimii pe care tu îi ştergi din articol şi-au dat viaţa lor fără ca să crâcnească. Sau tu vrei să-i mai omori odată prin uitare? Altfel nu uita că Mihnea Turcitul, deşi arâta acelora ca un pom înflorit, era pe dinlăuntru doar un lac împuţit.

Vezi că mâine este Bobotează! Mai spală din păcate, apoi începe anul altfel, mai bine.

Cu dragoste întru Hristos,

Dr Dan Jâpă, MD, PhD danjipa la taie-mi nasul.freemail.iris-ward.com

The Wrong images abund, the good ones are delted

Why an anonymous? Aren't there thousands of monks with a Christian name ? Also, for whom is "oldest known" legend kept? Aren't there knowledgeable editors around ?