Talk:Elvis Presley

Elvis Australia site "officially sanctioned"?

I've replaced a number of the Elvis Australia cites with book sources. There are still some remaining. I notice External links contains the following entry:

• Elvis Presley Interviews on officially sanctioned Elvis Australia site

Does anyone have any information about this being "officially sanctioned"? PL290 (talk) 20:17, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

If you mean "officially sanctioned" by Elvis Presley Enterprises,yes they are,as is Elvis Information Network,of which a form is sent by Elvis Presley Enterprises each year for them to fill out and sign and return. Which then allows them to use the registered trademark of EPE. Hope this information is what you required. I'll also quickly point out,that those interviews they conduct with various Authors etc, are infact genuine.--Jaye9 (talk) 22:35, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Elvis: Blues and R&B?

This page claims that Elvis did many genres, including Blues and R&B. Well, I've heard almost every Elvis-song, but I've never heard him singing any Blues or R&B. Why are people thinking Elvis did Blues and R&B? Because he covered some Ray Charles-songs? Or because he did LaVern Baker's Saved in the '68 Comeback Special? Well, let me tell you: the original versions are Blues and R&B, but Elvis' versions are Rock And Roll. IGG8998 (talk) 12:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree with the blues, but rhythm and blues is another thing. Elvis himself said, "Rock 'n' roll music is basically gospel or rhythm and blues, or it sprang from that." And R&B is just Gospel (black gospel) with secular lyrics. And I would say that after his comeback, most of his new songs were more R&B than the ones before. I think it's very evident. Musdan77 (talk) 05:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Italics for collections/work

How clear can it be? From {{Cite web}}:

work

If this item is part of a larger "work", such as a book, periodical or website, write the name of that work. Do not italicize; the software will do so automatically.

publisher

Publisher, if any—for example if the website is hosted by a government service, educational institution, or company. (The publisher is not usually the name of the website (that is usually the work).

This is because in most citation styles, including the near-APA used by Cite web, a collection of articles, chapters, etc., is italicized. The name of a specific item from within it is in quotes. |publisher= should only be used for the name of a firm in the publishing business. You don't choose what the item is based on whether you think it should be italicized; you choose based on what it is. (Those italics are for emphasis, which is different.) — John Cardinal (talk) 02:46, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, see WP: ITALICS and every discussion at FAC in the history of mankind. RB88 (T) 22:42, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

If any further discussion is required, may I suggest this matter is now taken up at the WP: ITALICS talk page instead. We should ensure the involvement of all interested parties in any debate and/or change from current general practice that may turn out to be necessary. PL290 (talk) 03:21, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Re:RB88 and WP: ITALICS: WP:Italics is not the right place to discuss this. Those rules govern the use of italics in article prose. Citation styles are different. In WP, we don't specify names as "last, first", but in citations, we do. In WP prose, we restrict periods to the end of a sentence, but in citations, periods are used as delimiters and are not restricted to the end of a sentence. In WP, we spell out low numbers ("one" vs. "1"), but in citations, page numbers always use digits ("p. 1"). In WP, we don't use bold text very often, but in citations, bold is used for volume numbers. My point is, there is a difference between WP prose styles and citation styles and that distinction is lost on many WP editors. It seems dead-simple to me: citation styles govern text formatting in citations, and the name of a collection of material is italicized in the near-APA style used by {{cite web}}. That's why |work= is italicized by default. — John Cardinal (talk) 05:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

John, I already realize it seems dead simple to you, but it's equally clear that despite your statements to that effect, the opposite seems dead simple to RB88! Even if the question were resolved here between the two of you (or by other parties who have researched the point weighing in), the fact that the debate here (which began with an exchange of perhaps half a dozen reverting edit summaries citing guidelines/practice) was possible in the first place—between two editors each respected for their experience with different aspects of citations on Wikipedia— shows that at the very least, the guidelines need clarifying. That's why I now ask that this be moved to a guideline talk page, in order that contributions to (and simply awareness of) the debate may be widened appropriately. The first sentence in WP:ITALICS is, "Italic type (text like this) has several uses on Wikipedia." One of those uses is the formatting of citations. WP:ITALICS should make clear its relationship to that latter, and should either include guidelines applicable thereto or provide a link to them. Furthermore, the discussion just above shows that more than mere clarification is needed, i.e., either a change to bring the guidelines in line with agreed practice, or, on the other hand, greater awareness that general practice has been incorrect and should change to conform with the guidelines. Either way, the discussion should now be extended to a wider representation of the WP community than frequent the Elvis Presley article talk page. PL290 (talk) 09:34, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Musician?

Oxford English Dictionary's definition of musician is as follows: One skilled in music, esp. in playing an instrument. Based on this definition, the lead should be changed to read singer and actor rather than the incorrect musician. Elvis was known as a singer, so why not call him that?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:50, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I think Musician is generally used to include singers too. And he wasn't just a singer; he played guitar while performing. However, it's true that he was, mainly, a singer. What do others think? PL290 (talk) 17:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

He was a musician and arranger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mfbinc (talk • contribs) 17:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Elvis has been quoted as follows: I don't know anything about music. In my line you don't have to. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:44, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I note that in articles about other icons including Johnny Cash and Paul McCartney, the lead is much more specific than the vague term "musician", and I recommend using articles like those as a model. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:13, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I note that the comparable term in the McCartney infobox is "musician". Not "singer, musician"; not "singer, instrumentalist"; not "singer, bassist". Just "musician". I also note that the present article is featured, while the Cash and McCartney pieces are not. It is not irrelevant that the first sentence of this article is clear and focused, while the McCartney article begins with a laundry list. Hardly an inspiring model. DocKino (talk) 03:12, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

More precisely, the first sentence should read, "Elvis Aaron (or Aron^a) Presley (January 8, 1935 – August 16, 1977) was an American singer and B movie actor." Elvis didn't write his own songs and he only acted in bad movies. Onefortyone (talk) 20:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Dude seriously? If you don't stop trolling this article I'm going to block you. --Andy Walsh (talk) 20:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I do not understand your remark, Andy. Elvis was a very good singer. That’s why I included the Henry Pleasants quote in the vocal style section of the article. But it is also a fact that he didn’t write his own songs as Paul McCartney does. To my mind, he was only a singer and should not be called a musician. Furthermore, most critics agree that Elvis’s movies were pretty bad. Significantly, the Wikipedia article says that his movies were "formulaic, modestly budgeted musical-comedies" and that "His films were almost universally panned; one critic dismissed them as a 'pantheon of bad taste.' " Elvis didn't appear on a theater stage, as serious actors do. He branded film producer Hal B. Wallis "a double-dealing sonofabitch" (Wallis both produced Elvis movies and serious films), realizing there had never been any intention to let him develop into a serious actor. See Peter Guralnick, Careless Love: The Unmaking of Elvis Presley (1999), p.171. Actress Natalie Wood said about her friend Presley, "He can sing but he can’t do much else." See Peter Harry Brown and Pat H. Broeske, Down at the End of Lonely Street: The Life and Death of Elvis Presley (1997), p. 111. Onefortyone (talk) 21:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. To say one is a musician or an actor is not commenting on their choice of instrument (voice included) or venue or film. Contact any professional singer and suggest they are not a musician—they will receive this as an insult. We do not qualify such comments in the lead. Later in the article we might recount that someone was regarded as a poor actor or an actor in bad movies, with reliable sources. You have on your own user page that we must not insert our own opinions. The majority of your comments here that I've seen seem designed to let us know exactly what you think about Elvis. Alas, no one cares what you think about Elvis. We only care about the article text reflecting what is in reliable sources. Since this article passed FAC, you can assume the community consensus is that it does. For you to continue coming in here and making ridiculous remarks amounts to trolling. --Andy Walsh (talk) 22:09, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter? As you can see, other users are also of the opinion that Elvis may be called a singer rather than a musician. It is a fact that he primarily was a singer. The first sentence should be as precise as possible. Film experts say he wasn't a serious actor. What about saying, Elvis was a singer and actor in musical comedies? By the way, calling me a troll seems to be a personal attack. We are here earnestly discussing the first sentence of the article. So would you please refrain from making your personal remarks against me. Thank you. Onefortyone (talk) 22:17, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

The featured article on Michael Jackson starts as follows:

Michael Joseph Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009) was an American singer-songwriter, dancer, actor, choreographer, businessman, philanthropist and record producer.

Interestingly, it is not mentioned that Jackson was a musician. Another example is the first sentence of the featured article on Bob Dylan:

Bob Dylan (born Robert Allen Zimmerman; May 24, 1941) is an American singer-songwriter and musician.

This means that Dylan not only wrote his own songs but also his own lyrics. The second paragraph additionally states that Dylan performs with guitar, piano and harmonica. This may be the reason why he is also called a musician in the first sentence. The article on Madonna (entertainer) (a former featured article now listed as one of the good articles) says:

Madonna (born Madonna Louise Ciccone; August 16, 1958) is an American recording artist, actress and entrepreneur.

Significantly, she is not called a musician. The good article on Bob Marley reads at the beginning:

Robert Nesta "Bob" Marley (February 6, 1945 – May 11, 1981) was a Jamaican singer-songwriter and musician. He was the lead singer, songwriter and guitarist for the ska, rocksteady and reggae bands The Wailers (1964–1974) and Bob Marley & The Wailers (1974–1981).

In the good article on John Lennon, the star is called “an English rock musician, singer-songwriter, author, and peace activist”. By the way, Paul McCartney is also listed as a good article. Query: what is so different with Presley? He was primarily a singer who also acted in several musical comedies because his manager told him to do so for commercial reasons. Why not call him therefore "a singer and, for some years of his life, an actor in musical-comedies"? This is certainly more precise than simply call him a musician. Onefortyone (talk) 00:26, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

On the other hand, this recently featured article on Elvis Presley describes him as a "musician," which is a matter of fact. Goodbye.—DocKino (talk) 01:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

So you prefer the less precise version. As I said above, a featured article should be as precise as possible. Onefortyone (talk) 01:04, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I prefer the current version, which passed FAC. There is no consensus to change it. If you perceive it as imprecise, that is your problem. If it pains you, it appears you'll have to live with that ache.—DocKino (talk) 01:14, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I do not think that there is a consensus in favor of the current version, as there are other users who would like to change the first sentence. See above. Onefortyone (talk) 01:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Consensus doesn't involve strictly numbers—that would be a vote. Consensus also involves reasoned argument, of which I've seen none. That another article does something is no reason for this article to do it. I find the term "singer" inaccurate, as it in no way encompasses Elvis' role in the musical world. --Andy Walsh (talk) 01:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

"Musician" is too general. It's like calling Babe Ruth's occupation "athlete" rather than "baseball player". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:51, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

That's not at all an apt comparison. --Andy Walsh (talk) 01:53, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Sure it is. And to call the King of Rock and Roll simply a "musician" is inadequate. An organ grinder playing for handouts in a public park is a "musician". Elvis was a guitar player and singer, among other things. Follow the format of the other iconic musicians, and spell out what he was famous for in the lead. That's the point of the lead, to be able to read it alone and have a pretty good sense of what the article is about. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Elvis Presley does not meet the Oxford English Dictionary's definition of musician. Furthermore, none of the foreign Wikipedia articles on Elvis describe him as a musician; so why are we making ourselves conspicuous and open to ridicule from critics by being the only Wikipedian article to call him musician when he is known to the world as a singer?!!!! The article should read that he was a singer and actor. Why is there a problem with that?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:40, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

A singer is a musician. Are you saying he wasn't a skilled singer? --Andy Walsh (talk) 06:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Musician is too generic a term. Elvis was specifically a singer, which has nothing to do with his skill or talent in that field whatsoever. Singer means a person who sings-full stop.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Elvis Presley played rhythm guitar in virtually all of his recording sessions and concert appearances from his very first in 1954 through 1960, encompassing his most influential work and the period of his greatest fame. Full stop.—DocKino (talk) 07:51, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I am aware of that. So let's say he was a singer, rhythm guitarist and actor; that way we specify everything about him. The word musician is just too vague!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:52, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

What about this version:

Elvis Aaron (or Aron^a) Presley (January 8, 1935 – August 16, 1977) was one of the most famous popular American singers of the 20th century. He also played rhythm guitar and acted in several musical-comedies.

To my mind, this is the most accurate version of the lead as it says that he was primarily a singer. Onefortyone (talk) 13:03, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Elvis a musician? The 20th century has seen the emergence of "pop singers", and it seems difficult for some of us to classify them as "musicians". But whether "serious" musicians would consider Elvis a musician in the "classical" sense (are opera singers "musicians"? yes, in my opinion), they may not now, but how will Elvis be remembered a century from now? He played at least one instrument, sang, composed... Music was his whole life. It is difficult to deny him the title of "musician" when the wiki article on that term lists pop singers & song writers as such. There is also this article American Federation of Musicians. Elvis was a unique case and it is difficult to put him in a category, or deny him one.

--Frania W. (talk) 13:46, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Elvis was not a composer. He didn't write his own songs. He was primarily a singer and this must be stressed in the lead of the Wikipedia article. Onefortyone (talk) 13:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with that. It's one thing to say that anyone involved in making music in any way, shape or form is technically a "musician", but that term tends to have a limited meaning, implying considerable skill on a range of instruments possibly including but not limited to the voice. It does not extend to conductors, or record producers, even though they're just as much part of the music making as the performers are. Would we ever refer to Maria Callas or Vladimir Horowitz as a musician? Hardly. Elvis is the Maria Callas of rock, so he's not a "musician" either. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:57, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Of course Elvis was a musician. A singer's voice is his instrument. He also played guitar and piano. However that's not to say that he should be described as a musician. He is mostly known as a popular singer, and that would suffice.Musdan77 (talk) 21:06, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

And he was an arranger, too. So far, he was a singer, guitar player, piano player, and an arranger. And film actor. And soldier. You don't have to boil it down to one thing. He was many things, so just let it go and get on with his story. Santamoly (talk) 08:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

In the strictest sense, what, then, is a "musician"? --Frania W. (talk) 11:40, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

According to the OED, a musician is somebody who is skilled in music; especially in playing an instrument. By that definition, Elvis Presley cannot be classified as a musician. If we were MCs presenting Presley to the general public, we would be correct in describing him as a singer, film actor and cultural icon. The leading sentence should state this; further down in the article, it can mention that he also played the guitar, etc.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

According to my old Webster, a "musician" is "one skilled in music"; "a composer or professional performer of music." Please note that the word "instrument" is nowhere to be found in Webster's definition. However, when going to "sing", here is something interesting: "to produce musical tones by means of the voice"; "to utter words in musical tones and with musical inflections and modulations". So, to refuse a singer the quality of "musician" when his/her specialty can be described only in "musical" terms seems to me contradictory.

NOTE: I came here only to discuss the term "musician", and not what should be in the lead of EP's article.

Bonne journée ! --Frania W. (talk) 21:10, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

My Webster's says, "musician - 1. a person who makes music a profession, esp. as a performer on an instrument. 2. a person skilled in playing a musical instrument." Onefortyone (talk) 22:52, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Onefortyone: so, according to the definition given by your Webster, was EP a "musician" or not?

--Frania W. (talk) 00:20, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion, he was primarily a singer. He is not well known as a musician (i.e. a performer on an instrument). Onefortyone (talk) 00:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Is not the voice of a singer a "musical instrument"? Just as a pianist (a performer on an instrument) has to practice scales & exercises daily, a singer has to exercise his/her voice daily. Or is it that EP did not practice anything before singing? I also find it strange that Jack of Oz does not consider Horowitz ("classical virtuoso pianist and minor composer", dixit en:wiki) to be a musician.

--Frania W. (talk) 01:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

To my mind, this may be the best version:

Elvis Aaron (or Aron^a) Presley (January 8, 1935 – August 16, 1977) was one of the most popular and controversial American singers of the 20th century.

He was loved by many teens and hated by their parents, and the entire article includes much detail about the controversy. Any comments? Onefortyone (talk) 22:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment: not happening. But you enjoy that in your "mind." DocKino (talk) 04:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Yo Yo Ma doesn't compose any of his own materials either so I guess he isn't a musician either? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.47.15.10 (talk) 19:07, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Questions over cause of death

The first paragraph of this section reads:

"Drug use was heavily implicated" in Presley's death, writes Guralnick. "No one ruled out the possibility of anaphylactic shock brought on by the codeine pills ... to which he was known to have had a mild allergy." A pair of lab reports filed two months later each strongly suggested that polypharmacy was the primary cause of death; one reported "fourteen drugs in Elvis' system, ten in significant quantity." Forensic historian and pathologist Michael Baden views the situation as complicated: "Elvis had had an enlarged heart for a long time. That, together with his drug habit, caused his death. But he was difficult to diagnose; it was a judgment call."

I have included some additional, well-sourced information:

"Drug use was heavily implicated" in Presley's death, writes Guralnick. "No one ruled out the possibility of anaphylactic shock brought on by the codeine pills ... to which he was known to have had a mild allergy." A pair of lab reports filed two months later each strongly suggested that polypharmacy was the primary cause of death; one reported "fourteen drugs in Elvis' system, ten in significant quantity." Moreover, "the liver showed considerable damage, and the large intestine was clogged with fecal matter, indicating a painful and longstanding bowel condition." Therefore, Presley had most possibly "been taken while 'straining at stool.' " Forensic historian and pathologist Michael Baden views the situation as complicated: "Elvis had had an enlarged heart for a long time. That, together with his drug habit, caused his death. But he was difficult to diagnose; it was a judgment call."

This information has been deleted by user DocKino who claimed that it was a “bad faith edit“. Could it be that DocKino’s removals of well-sourced contributions by other users are made in bad faith? Here is what reputed Elvis biographer Peter Guralnick says about Presley's death:

The only thing that appeared to have been missed, aside from the empty syringes, was the book that Elvis had in the bathroom with him when he died, a study of sex and psychic energy that correlated sexual positions with astrological signs. Warlick found a stain on the bathroom carpeting, too, that seemed to indicate where Elvis had thrown up after being stricken, apparently while seated on the toilet. It looked to the medical investigator as if he had "stumbled or crawled several feet before he died." ... nine pathologists from Baptist cond acted the examination in full knowledge that the world was watching but that the results would be released to Elvis' father alone. ... Francisco announced the results of the autopsy, even as the autopsy was still going on. Death, he said, was "due to cardiac arrhythmia due to undetermined heartbeat." ... But there were in fact at that time no results to report. The autopsy proper went on for another couple of hours. Specimens were collected and carefully preserved, the internal organs were examined and the heart found to be enlarged, a significant amount of coronary atherosclerosis was observed, the liver showed considerable damage, and the large intestine was clogged with fecal matter, indicating a painful and longstanding bowel condition. The bowel condition alone would have strongly suggested to the doctors what by now they had every reason to suspect from Elvis' hospital history, the observed liver damage, and abundant anecdotal evidence: that drug use was heavily implicated in this unanticipated death of a middle-aged man with no known history of heart disease who had been "mobile and functional within eight hours of his death." It was certainly possible that he had been taken while "straining at stool," and no one ruled out the possibility of anaphylactic shock brought on by the codeine pills he had gotten from his dentist, to which he was known to have had a mild allergy of long standing. The pathologists, however, were satisfied to wait for the lab results, which they were confident would overrule Dr. Francisco's precipitate, and somewhat meaningless, announcement, as indeed they eventually did. There was little disagreement in fact between the two principal laboratory reports and analyses filed two months later, with each stating a strong belief that the primary cause of death was polypharmacy, and the BioScience Laboratories report, initially filed under the patient name of "Ethel Moore," indicating the detection of fourteen drugs in Elvis' system, ten in significant quantity. Codeine appeared at ten times the therapeutic level, methaqualone (Quaalude) in an arguably toxic amount, three other drugs appeared to be on the borderline of toxicity taken in and of themselves, and "the combined effect of the central nervous system depressants and the codeine" had to be given heavy consideration. See Careless Love:The Unmaking of Elvis Presley (1999), pp. 651-652.

This means that my addition is well sourced, and it is certainly of much importance in a section dealing with questions concerning the actual cause of Elvis’s death. Onefortyone (talk) 14:49, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

No, the topic receives sufficient coverage as is. I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for you, 141. I hope that someday you find the help you badly need. DocKino (talk) 19:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Egregious edting by Onefortyone continues...

Recent attempts by 141 have paid no attention to how they will improve the article. They have simply been made to add negative content. 141 made attempts to get lurid details about the circumstances in which Presley died shoe horned into a section in which the obesity/ill-health factor was NOT one of the questions over cause of death (it would have been a question if it had NOT been a factor in his demise). It is difficult to see this edit as anything other than an effort to add a detail simply because of its mention of stools, fecal matter, etc. It fits a depressing pattern.

More recently, we have 141 doing a tit for tat removal (three attempts) of the word 'popular' that completely ignores the context in which the word is used both times in the summary. This type of editing is ludicrous and is further evidence that 141 is being deliberately disruptive - a troll. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 04:51, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Your double standard is all too transparent, Rikstar, if you compare these two edits: [1], [2]. Double standards like this certainly violate the principle known as impartiality, which is based on the assumption that the same standards should be applied to all Wikipedians, without regard to subjective bias as in your case. Elvis was one of the most popular and at the same time one of the most controversial singers of the twentieth century. You cannot deny this historical fact. As for Elvis’s well-known death on the toilet, it is well sourced. You cannot omit this fact because Elvis fans don't like it. According to reputed Elvis biographer Peter Guralnick, the singer's "liver showed considerable damage, and the large intestine was clogged with fecal matter, indicating a painful and longstanding bowel condition" caused by Elvis's drug abuse. Therefore, Presley had most possibly "been taken while 'straining at stool.' " See Guralnick, Careless Love: The Unmaking of Elvis Presley (1999), p.651-652. This fact is as important as Presley's enlarged heart already mentioned in the section on the cause of Elvis's death. See also these commentaries by user Baseball Bugs: [3], [4]. Interestingly, the first sentence of this revision of the lead has not been removed. So much for your false claims above that I have paid no attention to the improvement of the article and only added negative content. Just the opposite is the case, as the singer/musician discussion above also shows. Onefortyone (talk) 15:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Third opinion

Sadly I must agree with Rikstar's assessment that the edits in question were unconstructive, and in precisely the ways he identifies. PL290 (talk) 16:23, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, PL290, as you are still removing several of my well-sourced contributions and were deeply involved in biased discussions concerning the said topic, your view is certainly not a "third opinion". Onefortyone (talk) 16:31, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Why are the gory details needed? It's undue weight. And this is Wikipedia, not General Hospital. Yes, everyone knows, "The King died 'on the throne'", or so the saying goes. A sentence or two explaining the facts should be quite sufficient. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:35, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that it is not even mentioned in the article that Elvis died on the toilet, whereas other details (his enlarged heart, his drug use) are intensively discussed in the section on the cause of his death. Onefortyone (talk) 16:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

And that's exactly how it should be. You call it a problem; I call it a solution. Onefortyone, by your own admission, yours is a minority viewpoint. PL290 (talk) 17:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Far as I know, the only thing that's known for sure is he died in the bathroom. The 'on the throne' part was mostly a media joke. And it's undue weight to write paragraph after paragraph of speculation about it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:11, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Just for the record. It wasn’t simply a media joke. According to Guralnick, Warlick found a stain on the bathroom carpeting indicating "where Elvis had thrown up after being stricken, apparently while seated on the toilet." It is also a fact that Elvis had a longstanding bowel condition because of his heavy drug abuse. Therefore the doctors and Guralnick concluded that it “was certainly possible that he had been taken while 'straining at stool' ". What makes it so difficult to simply cite, perhaps in abridged form, what is written by reputed Elvis biographers? For instance, Greil Marcus precisely writes, "Elvis died on the toilet." See Dead Elvis: A Chronicle of a Cultural Obsession (1999), p.154. According to Sandy Carter, "Physically wrecked, 14 different drugs in his system, spiritually empty, Elvis Presley dies in 1977 at the age of 42 while sitting on his toilet, gold pajama bottoms at his ankles." Onefortyone (talk) 17:47, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

And why do all these medical details matter all that much? Why spend more than one sentence on it? No one dies neatly. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:22, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Baseball Bugs. We don't need to go into all this lavish detail; one sentence or two will suffice.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

So you would agree to simply cite, for instance, Greil Marcus's short statement that "Elvis died on the toilet." Onefortyone (talk) 19:10, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely NOT. This is voyeurism in all its horror. --Frania W. (talk) 02:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I would have to agree with DocKino and others 141,in saying that this topic receives sufficient coverage as it stands,and if it be and we were to include this extra information you wish to add to the article, then go all way and explain to reader, that as Alanna Nash explains it in her book "Baby Let's Play House", Elvis didn't die on the toilet dear, when they found him,he had crawled several feet away from the toilet and then vomited, his tongue, nearly bitten in half and she further explains, that Elvis's death had not been quick, nor had it been painless. But then if we put that in, the reader my feel empathy towards him and we carn't have that now, can we.--Jaye9 (talk) 19:49, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Guralnick also writes that Elvis had "stumbled or crawled several feet before he died." However, this fact does not contradict the other fact that he had been taken while straining at stool. Nash's report is of some importance as she was, as far as I can remember, among the first journalists to view the remains of Elvis and contacted several doctors about the case. Therefore, some details from her account could also be used for the article. It may at least be mentioned that his death wasn't painless. Onefortyone (talk) 21:08, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

This toilet and drug obsessed detail is truly morbid, disgusting, and perverse. There is no reason to include such revolting information in a quality biography about a fine and decent person. Out with it. Santamoly (talk) 21:39, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

End it

I have fed the troll for the last time (feels great!) and I respectfully ask my fellow editors to do the same. When the troll comes around, don't see red, think green. Silence here and reversion where it counts solves the problem with the least waste of energy. DocKino (talk) 02:43, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Recent Reverts

The most recent was by Rikstar replacing "popular—and". Normally I would agree with you, Rikstar, but in this case, I believe that the word "popular" is out of place in this sentence. The word "controversial" (or controversy) itself means that there are 2 sides - pro & con, so it's adding a word that's not needed. Now, the other option would be to replace "controversial" with a word that means the opposite of "popular."

The previous revert was on a revision that I had made. And I'd like to ask everyone to look at it (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Elvis_Presley&diff=cur&oldid=354886007) and say if you agree or disagree with the person who said that it was "terrible writing and bad style." And I ask that person, "Do you really think that every edit that I made was bad? And do you think that it fine to just remove everything that someone painstakingly did to try to improve an article -- especially an intro section that is much to long? An intro with 4 paragraphs is way too long - even for Elvis. It needs to be condensed. Thank you, Musdan77 (talk) 22:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'm afraid that virtually every edit you made was bad. On the one hand, this is a Featured Article, whose lead has received a lot of attention and work. On the other hand, your contribution was marked by awkward constructions such as "the new sound to be called 'rock and roll'" (which is also ungrammatical). You seem to be having difficulty grasping the meaning of "popular" and "controversial" (the latter does not indicate there is a "pro side" in the way that it indicates a "con"). Your mishandling of style included the introduction of an inappropriate ampersand and two improperly spaced em-dashes. The length of the lead, in fact, is perfectly in accord with both our guideline and our custom.

To improve your ability to contribute productively to Wikipedia, consider spending some quality time with our Manual of Style. DocKino (talk) 02:25, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Musdan77, but I agree it was better as it was, and your analysis above is off the mark. By all means be bold in your Wikipedia editing, but don't be surprised when your edits (by which, incidentally, you too "just remove everything that someone painstakingly did to try to improve an article") are sometimes reverted. PL290 (talk) 09:27, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I do not think that Musdan77's analysis above is off the mark. Onefortyone (talk) 19:03, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the above remark should not have been removed. I do encourage you, 141, to redact the bit that is about editors, rather than content.- Sinneed 19:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

The shot against wikipedia editors needs to go, as it's a scattergun personal attack and could result in a block if it persists. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:38, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

There is an obvious tendency concerning "recent reverts" (the topic of this section). If anybody really wants to know what a personal attack is, he/she should have a look at this edit. Onefortyone (talk) 19:51, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I see, it was archived and it is way too late to fix that. Everyone involved in the personal insults needs to stop. Please all: focus on the content, not the motivations, mental states, intentions, and skills of the editors.- Sinneed 20:07, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Double standard concerning Ed Sullivan

On the one hand, DocKino says on Talk:The Ed Sullivan Show that the description of the event [i.e. Elvis’s Ed Sullivan appearance] "by one of the central participants [i.e. Elvis] is absolutely worthy of inclusion. Can we identify the source for the Presley quote? If we can, it should go in." See [5]. Therefore, I have included the full quote in the article on the Ed Sullivan Show. On the other hand, DocKino has removed a very short version of what Sullivan said to Presley from the Elvis Presley article, saying "Revert tendentious, bad faith edit by notorious troll. There is no issue of imbalance here to correct." See [6]. I would call this double standard. If it is only said at the end of the said paragraph that, at the end of the show, Sullivan declared Presley "a real decent, fine boy", the reader may get the impression that Sullivan really liked Elvis, whereby the additional quote clearly shows, for reasons of balance, that Sullivan’s words weren’t sincere. Here is what Elvis himself retrospectively said:

"So they arranged to put me on television. At that particular time there was a lot of controversy -- you didn't see people moving -- out in public. They were gettin' it on in the back rooms, but you didn't see it out in public too much. So there was a lot of controversy ... and I went to the Ed Sullivan Show. They photographed me from the waist up. And Sullivan's standing over there saying, 'Sumbitch.' I said, 'Thank you, Ed, thank you.' I didn't know what he was calling me, at the time. " See "Elvis Talks About His Career," on "Live in Las Vegas" (RCA), cited by Greil Marcus, "Real Life Rock Top 10", Salon.com, August 26, 2002.

Therefore, the following sentence should be reincluded in the Elvis article:

Though Sullivan made a backstage remark calling the singer "Sumbitch", at the end of the show, he declared Presley "a real decent, fine boy".

Wikipedia should tell the whole story, not only what Elvis fans like to read. Onefortyone (talk) 11:08, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that a native New Yorker such as Ed Sullivan would use the expression sumbitch, which is a US southern slang term rarely heard north of the Mason Dixon line.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Interestingly, Elvis himself heard Ed Sullivan using the term. Sullivan certainly knew that Elvis was a poor, rural Southern boy from working-class parents. Perhaps he wanted to tease the singer by using the derogatory term. Onefortyone (talk) 17:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it was the other way around and it was Elvis who had called Sullivan a sumbitch seeing as Elvis would have known Sullivan was a northern yankee!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:26, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

According to Elvis's own words, there can be no doubt that Sullivan was "standing over there saying, 'Sumbitch.'" These are the facts. Significantly, around the same time, Webb Pierce also called Elvis "a son of a bitch". See Howard A. DeWitt, Elvis, the Sun Years: The Story of Elvis Presley in the Fifties (1993), p.105. Onefortyone (talk) 17:33, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Presley's quote doesn't "clearly show" anything other than Presley's retrospective impression of the event. It is obviously not a "fact" that Sullivan called Presley a "sumbitch", only that Presley later claimed he did. Within the context of the Ed Sullivan article, which can devote a considerable amount of space to that show's most notable episodes, it is appropriate to include the quote. In this article, which must cover a vast amount of ground, it is not appropriate to repeat the entire quote, and the abbreviated version of it that was introduced was obviously misleading about its verifiability. Anyone with a passing familiarity with the professional literature on Presley knows that the Sullivan's famous, public, verifiable, broadcast statement is quoted repeatedly, and that Presley's fascinating but questionable recollection is quoted rarely. The latter simply does not belong in this article. Looks like you need to start a new one: Foul language and toilet activity associated with Elvis Presley. 65.88.88.214 (talk) 20:37, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I totally disagree with your argument, DocKino (this time using an IP address from the New York Public Library). If Elvis says that Sullivan called him a "sumbitch", then this must be taken as evidence that Sullivan indeed used this expression. Who else should know about the exact derogatory term actually being used by Sullivan, if not Elvis, the direct ear-witness? Therefore, for reasons of balance, the article must somehow articulate that Sullivan’s words about the "decent, fine boy" Elvis weren’t sincere. There are several further sources supporting this view. TV Guide speaks of a "faint praise", Robert Rodriguez writes that "Elvis’s discomfort at the compliment is evident; he looked as though he’d just received a Judas kiss before being publicly neutered and declared to be safe as milk." It is evident that Sullivan didn’t like Elvis. His reaction to Presley's performance on the Milton Berle Show was, "I thought the whole show was dirty and vulgar." Therefore, it was decided to shoot the singer only from the waist up during his Sullivan performance. According to Tim Parrish, Colonel Parker "had threatened to remove Elvis from the show if Sullivan did not apologize for telling the press that Elvis’s 'gyrations' were immoral." Onefortyone (talk) 23:05, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

141 Are you aware of the fact that human beings, EP included, do have body parts above the waist, or are you interested only in the lower parts? You're tiresome. --Frania W. (talk) 23:16, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I do not understand your remark. We are here discussing Sullivan's view of Elvis. Onefortyone (talk) 00:45, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Here are some further sources. According to TV Guide, Vol. 47, Sullivan "tried to make peace on the air, calling Presley 'a real decent, fine boy.' The boy just stared past him. It was too late - the battle lines between the rock-and-roll generation and its parents had been drawn on national TV." Eyewitness Jerry Schilling writes, "The way Elvis looked out at us at that moment, I thought I could see a mix of hurt over the attacks he’d been subjected to in the press, and a deep pride in who he was and what he was doing." See Me and a Guy Named Elvis: My Lifelong Friendship with Elvis Presley (2006), p.45. Todd Slaughter and Anne E. Nixon say that Sullivan’s "patronising comments ... surely must have embarrassed Elvis." See The Elvis Archives (2004), p.33. Susan Doll calls Sullivan's remark "a somewhat hypocritical statement considering what the CBS censors had just done to his performance on that show." See Susan Doll, Understanding Elvis: Southern Roots vs. Star Image (1998), p.82. The same author adds on p.85 that, according to David Marsh, Elvis "was seen as a 'barbarian' who was attractive to the television executives and sponsors because he garnered ratings and generated wealth, but he was not welcome by the culture barons." According to Ron Rodman, "Gleason, Allen, and (initially) Sullivan all wanted nothing to do with Presley, viewing him as a vulgar hayseed. Yet Sullivan recognized the popularity that Presley generated ..." See Tuning in: American Narrative Television Music (2010), p.186. There are lots of sources of this kind. Therefore, for reasons of balance, Sullivan's derogatory remark certainly belongs in the article. Onefortyone (talk) 00:59, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Hey, buddy, I'm back from the library! (Are you back from the toilet?) And, boy, do I understand Frania W.'s remark. As for "Sullivan's derogatory remark", we can not take Presley's hearsay-based claim made twelve years after the fact on faith. (Yes, hearsay. Presley expressly admitted he was not an "ear-witness", you congenital liar.) Presley's statement has found its proper place on Wikipedia in the Ed Sullivan Show article, where it can be quoted in full and appropriately contextualized. But it's not going in here, where we've already provided considerable information on Sullivan's previously expressed views of Presley and need to keep the narrative moving on to other topics. End of story.—DocKino (talk) 01:18, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide a source which explicitly says that Presley expressly admitted he was not an "ear-witness"? According to the singer's own words, "Sullivan's standing over there saying, 'Sumbitch.' I said, 'Thank you, Ed, thank you.' I didn't know what he was calling me, at the time." This means that Elvis himself had heard what Sullivan had said. Don't call me a liar. Onefortyone (talk) 01:36, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The source, as is obvious I'm sure to everyone reading this, is right there in his statement: "I didn't know what he was calling me, at the time."

I'm sorry you didn't like my choice of words. Your record of gross misrepresentation of source material via selective quotation and, as in this case, false characterization, as well your history of outright fabrication of essential reference information is well documented in our archives. If I can think of a nicer term with which to summarize your behavior, I'll be sure to share it with you. DocKino (talk) 01:47, 17 April 2010 (UTC)