Talk:Criticism of communism

Starting fresh

Okay, that was a lengthy dispute and a five-day list of proposed changes. I've archived it now, see above. Frankly I must say I don't know enough about this topic to have an opinion on whether the changes are appropriate. Also, the diff between the currently protected version and the last is far from helpful. Let's see if we can reach a compromise on this.

Might I suggest the following. Let's start with three points, 1.Environment, 2.Technology, and 3.Science. Whichever of you that doesn't agree with the current version should write a short paragraph in the sections below describing what should be changed, and add a few arguments. The other party should add a few counterarguments. Please don't go any further than that for the first couple of days. Oh yes, and both parties please sources.

Then, we request community input. Third opinion, basically. That's what article RFCs are for. Do you think that's workable? Radiant_>|< 00:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The editors involved in this page have thoroughly discussed all of these points over and over again. There's really no reason to ask them to rehash all of them and play them out once again, at least other than to torture them. It makes much more sense instead to wait for the arbitration ruling. 172 | Talk 00:15, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• There's an arbcom case about this article? Ouch, that's what I get from being too absent these days. My idea was that if they represented their points in a comprehensible manner (as opposed to the a lenghty and confusing discussion I saw earlier) then other people may be able to understand the dispute and help out. Very well, I'll leave it be for now. Radiant_>|< 00:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
  • The case is Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ultramarine. Perhaps this page should be reverted back to show the contents of the now archived talk, as evidence so that everyone is on the same page with regard to the staus of this article. Thanks for your reply and your intentions. 172 | Talk 00:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Fortunately, the links to individual diffs from the Arb pages still appear to work. Presumably the links (and I believe there are some) to sections here do not. Can the archive be merged back until the Arbitration is complete? (This is why I have not archived this talk page, btw.) Septentrionalis 06:11, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
      • I'll go ahead and merge the sections. To anyone, if I make a mistake in doing so, just revert me. 172 | Talk 07:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Oh Christ. It's impossible to move Talk:Criticisms of communism/Archive, the page with the full page history]] back to where it was (Talk:Criticisms of communism) before Radiant's move without first deleting the new Talk:Criticisms of communism created by Radiant's move. My attempt to undo Radiant's move then messed things up even more. Sorry. We'll need Radiant's help to get all the pages moved back to where the belong. 172 | Talk 07:37, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I moved things back to where I think Radiant had them. Talk through with him what you think should be done instead. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 19:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
      • This is still problematic, as it leaves the prior page history of the talk page at Talk:Criticisms of communism/Archive. The pages should be moved back to where they were before Radiant's moves, though they were quite well intentioned and laudable. 172 | Talk 19:50, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I think there are several ownership problems here, not just one. I'd ask all participants involved to take a step back and ask themselves: how do my actions help to produce an encyclopedia? --Tony Sidaway^Talk 21:23, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Your point? No one was asking you for your opinion on who has ownership issues here. I criticized you for not consulting Ryan. I am no longer an involved in this dispute and will no longer edit this article; so you and Ryan are the ones who can discuss just how you are going to handle Ultramarine. 172 | Talk 04:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect 172, and try to be more civil. I filed an incident report regarding Delaney's original violation of policy by reverting before his protection, that was a request for not just opinion but corrective action. Delaney's abuse and ownship issues continue, and you are still here, I guess accusing Sidaway of not showing proper deference to another admin.--Silverback 16:15, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Unprotecting

Looking at the history it seems mainly to have been some kind of edit war between two parties. This isn't a good reason to stop everybody editing an article, so after over a week I'm unprotecting. If I see a repetition of the disruptive ping-pong style edit warring, I'll deal with it by blocking the disruptive editors. Please feel free to edit boldly in the search for consensus. --Tony Sidaway^Talk

I announced that I would no longer be editing this article, as there is no chance of reasoning with Ultramarine when he asserts his ownership over an article. So perhaps my input no longer matters here. At any rate, I suggest that you hold off and consult with Ryan Delaney, the administrator who has been following this page and who imposed the protection, before acting unilaterally here. 172 | Talk 20:01, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

BTW, does anyone want to place bets as to when we see that the "correct and referenced version" is restored? My bet is quite soon. 172 | Talk 20:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't appreciate Tony unprotecting articles I have protected without consulting me, for the second time. As User:172 pointed out, I've been following this dispute and I protected the article for a reason. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 21:02, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

As admitted by himself, Ryan Delaney has willfully broken the protection policy because he dislikes me as a person. At the same time he made a personal attack: "To this, I plead guilty as charged; I did willfully ignore that part of the blocking policy, and I ignored it because I felt the situation called for me to do so. Rather than revert while protecting, I could have waited for someone else to revert, and then protect the article, and in so doing avoid all appearance of impropriety: but I feel that would not have been necessary. Ultramarine is one of the most stubborn, persistent, and arrogant Wikipedia editors I have encountered." [1]

He has also entered evidence in the RfA which involves this article. He should obviously not protect this page. Ultramarine 21:10, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Economic Development/Comparison between countries

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed before, so I'll just raise the issue: currently, the only comparisons mentioned are those between East and West Germany and between Cuba and Jamaica/Cuba and Caribbean. I agree that the second comparison is not really meaningful, given the embargo of Cuba, but also given that Jamaica is hardly a model capitalist economy. Actually I was wondering why there was no mention of North and South Korea: after all, South Korea was traditionally the poorer, agricultural part of Korea, while the North was the industrial heart of the country. Yet once South Korea started to adopt capitalist economics, its economy developped very fast (actually faster than even Japan). In the meantime, North Korea descended into mismanagement and famine. Another example could be China: once China adopted pro-capitalist reforms (i.e. after Mao) the economy started to bloom and now is one of the economic motors of the world. Again, another comparison could also be made with Taiwan, which after all was a neglected and not very industrial island before the Kuomintang sought refuge there and became one of the Asian tiger nations (even though almost no country actually recognises it!). Luis rib 20:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

You can find these comparisons in the correct and referenced version. As it is usually immediately blankly reverted, I suggest that you look in the edit history in order to find it. Ultramarine 20:51, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

What about this consideration. By far most countries in the world are capitalist and most of those are poor and very few have escaped that poverty. So that makes for a very bad case for capitalism, but I wouldn't abolish it for that reason. And the reason for that is that there are almost no alternatives. The only one is 'communism' (well, state socialism, really), but every country that has adopted that did so through a revolution. And revolutions are pretty disruptive. The only example of non-revolutionary communism I can think of (and this is more like true communism) are the kibutzim in Israel. I expect that if you'd classify countries by the stability of their political development you'd see that that is the determining factor in stead of the economic model in use (there must be such studies - anyone?). Ultimately, there are waaaaaay too few examples to statistically make a case for anything at all. And ceterus is most definitely not paribus here. So the only thing you can say is that you can't say anything. People understandably don't like such conclusions, but let's keep things scientific. DirkvdM 21:05, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

List of proposed changes III

(Moved this list here from the most recent achieve). The correct and referenced version has over 70 verifiable and reliable references for its statements. In contrast, the other version violates Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. It contains deliberate and verifiable factual errors, numerous dubious original research statements, and systematic deletions of views with verifiable and reliable sources. Here are some of the more important differences. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

We have already been over this twice already, and it proved impossible to reach an agreement with you. I have not responded to your points earlier because I have come to the conclusion that trying to reason with you is futile; I assume the other editors feel the same way. But I will attempt to discuss with you once more. I will also restore the previous Talk page which contains important evidence of our past arguments. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The section "Relevance of the Communist states for Marxist theory"

Deletion of every one of the many argument in this section that the Communist states were related to Marxist theory. This is the single most important difference between our versions. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

There are no such arguments in your article. There are only arguments that Communist states deviated from Stalinist practices and were very different from each other. But non-Stalinist does not equal Marxist. And Marx did not give any clear directions for the organization of a workers' state, believing that advanced planning of a future society constituted the fallacy of "utopian socialism". -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Simply false, see the correct and referenced version which has numerous well-referenced arguments in this section that have been deleted without explanation, including Lenin quoting Marx and Engels. Ultramarine 18:06, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Precisely due to the vague nature of Marx' recommendations, it is possible to construct a wide variety of political and economic systems that fit in with what he said in selected quotes. In addition, not only is the link between Marx and Lenin disputed, but so is the link between Lenin and the subsequent Communist states. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, claims without sources. I have given extensive sources, give yours, otherwise it is original research. Ultramarine 19:45, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The section "Human rights"

This section completely deleted, related to above Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Marx could not have rejected human rights, since the concept did not exist in his time. He specifically did not reject freedom, but claimed he wanted to augument it. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, claims without sources. I have given extensive sources that support my statements, give yours, otherwise it is original research. Ultramarine 19:46, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Marx's claims that he wanted to augument freedom are given by your sources, Ultramarine. Specifically, the excerpt that Brian Caplan quotes. As for human rights, I would like to remind you that the concept of universal human rights was first established after World War II. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 21:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Rights are mentioned both the US and French constitutions long before WWII. I have given a source and Caplan lists where he has taken his quotes. You have given no sources, thus your claims are original research. Ultramarine 22:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The section "Tabula Rasa"

This section completely deleted, related to above Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

There are no actual Marxist sources claiming that human nature is a tabula rasa; at the very least, there is no consensus among Marxists on the subject. You cite a secondary source making claims about the views of Marxists. This is unacceptable. Let the Marxists speak for themselves. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, claims without sources. I have given a source by respected historian. And he has numerous Marxist sources, for example Trotsky as noted in the article. Ultramarine 19:48, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, if he has actual Marxist sources, and you are in possesion of his book, then you can easily cite those Marxist sources, correct? Please do so. Cite the primary sources used by your respected historians, because even respected historians can have unfounded opinions. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 21:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

No, I do not have the book at the moment since I lent it at library months ago. There is no requirement in any Wikipedia policy that I must list the references used by other researchers. I have given a source written by an respected historian, you have given no, and as such your claims are original research. Ultramarine 22:05, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Then I challenge your source as unreliable until I have evidence that the views you cited were based on primary material as opposed to personal opinion and speculation. I will search for other sources giving counter-claims, but, in any case, it is not up to me to prove innocence; it is up to you to prove guilt. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 22:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Please, do not invent your own Wikipedia policy. An academic book by respected historian is a reliable source. You can check his references yourself, there is no requirement that I should list them. If you want to criticize the book, you should do so with sources, your own opinion is original research. Ultramarine 22:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't doubt your sources as much as I doubt your honesty in reporting what they say. You have given me every reason to believe you are editing in bad faith. You have given a number of very unusual and incomplete accounts of your sources' findings before, on the questions of life expectancy and pollution if I recall correctly. I am doing research at the moment, and, when I cite sources, I will do my best to provide you with exact quotes or at least page numbers. Your claim that Trotsky believed communism would physically alter human beings is extraordinary, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If I made an equally extraordinary claim - for example, citing Robert Conquest as saying that Stalin had a secret love affair with Hitler - then I should be held to the same standards. I have seen editors invent references before. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 04:20, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Please, I asked that you should avoid smear tactics and ad hominem. I have given extensive, verifiable, and reliable source for the statements. Contrast this to the unverifiable original research in your version. It is good that you are now doing research. Please return when completed and if you have some statements backed by reliable and verifiable sources. Remember, we are writing a reliable and verifiable encyclopedia. Ultramarine 14:06, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The section "Historical analysis"

This section completed excluded. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

This falls under criticisms of historical materialism. Your version of the article has many sections that are no more than a paragraph long. The collaborative version is more compact, with less headings. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

False, your article has no mention of this referenced criticism of Marx's theory of classes and historical development.Ultramarine 19:50, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Pseudoscience

Excludes Popper's argument against central planning. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

It is only a sentence long and it will be added to the collaborative version. One question I have, however, is whether Popper argued against ideologies that claim to have any knowledge of the future, or merely against those that claim to have exact knowledge of the future. Some Marxists fall into the latter category, but most fall under the former, since they only claim to have a rough idea of what the future will be like. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:06, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Nationwide central planning obviously requires a rather good ability to predict the future. Ultramarine 22:36, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Marx's predictions

Refusal to give a verifiable source for the very controversial statement that David Ricardo and John Stuart Mill would have agreed with most of Marx's predictions. Ultramarine 13:12, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

See iron law of wages. I'm not sure about John Stuart Mill, but David Ricardo certainly agreed that workers' wages would naturally drift to the subsistence level. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

That does certainly not mean that these two would have agreed with most of Marx predictions, such as a proletarian revolution or the development of monopolies or the development of two homogeneous classes or that all skilled workers would be replaced by machines. Ultramarine 18:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be more accurate to say that Marx agreed with some of their predictions (since they preceded him), and made a few more of his own. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Historical materialism

No mention of Max Stirner's argument against the philosophy of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

It seems to be rather tangential to the issue. Marx was by no means a strict Hegelian (he rejected idealism in favor of materialism, for one thing), and drawing a straight line from Hegel to 20th century Communism is, frankly, absurd. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Marx certainly used many of Hegel's concepts, thus this is a relevant criticism. And this criticism is not in the section about the Communist states. Ultramarine 19:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Could we get a reference for the Stirner position? I have never heard of Stirner arguing such a thing. --12/24/25

Stirner is known as a nihilist for a reason. He showed that Hegelian critical methods led all the way to nihilism just as cartesian criticism did. If you read his work, you will see he basically does a reductio ad absurdem of the dialectic, since the choice of anti-thesis is completely subjective. If you find his works difficult because of their poetic and literary elements, I suggest reading some of the dissertations covering his work. Marx reacted strongly against his work, but changed his own views in response to it. It is an open question whether Marx's materialism is really any less "religious" or faith based that Hegel's idealism was. Marx certainly hasn't made any arguments against nihilism that have gained respect in the philosophical mainstream.--Silverback 09:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Labor theory of value

No mention of the criticism against Marx's statement that only labor can cause an increase in value. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Environment

False statement that many of the ecological problems continued unabated after the fall of the Soviet Union. The environmental situation has improved in every studied former Communist state. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

"Many" does not equal "all". There are certainly many ecological problems that continue unabated after the fall of the Soviet Union. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

You have given no sources for your claims. Again, the environmental situation has improved. Ultramarine 18:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Life expectancy

Excludes mentioning that life expectancy started to increase immediately after the fall of Communism in many Eastern European states. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Review your sources. From what I recall, they showed that life expectancy underwent a sharp decline after the fall of Communism, then started to recover around the mid 1990s and eventually reached and surpassed its 1989 levels in some of the former Communist countries. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I have examined my sources, the improvements started immediately in several of the Eastern European states. Ultramarine 18:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Living standards

Exclusion of the very poor living standards and health care in the Soviet Union. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Very poor compared to what? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

See the referenced statements in the article. Ultramarine 18:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Economic growth under Stalin

No mention of the fabricated figures from the Stalin era, instead stating "dramatic advances, including rapid development of heavy industry during the 1930s in the Soviet Union". Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Do you deny that there was rapid development of heavy industry during the 1930s in the Soviet Union? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

There were certainly some development, but as noted with source much of this was simply imaginary figures. Ultramarine 18:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Cuba

States that Cuba is a comparatively successful communist state. No mention of the arguments against this. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Your version always ends any discussion with an anti-communist counter-counter-...-argument. I try to refrain from making paragraphs excessively long by introducing too many counter and counter-counter arguments, but I will do so if you leave me no choice. I would prefer, however, to end with a balanced look at both sides. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Do not delete well-referenced information. If you have something more, add it with references.Ultramarine 20:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

East Germany

No mention of the continued decline in productivity under Communist rule. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I will check your sources and their precise claims. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Good. Until you do and have referenced arguments, do not remove referenced information. Ultramarine 22:27, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Korea and China

No mention of the famines in North Korea and China as compared to the situation in South Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

This may be included in a larger section on comparison controversies. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Good. Until you do, do not remove referenced facts. Ultramarine 22:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Terrorism

No mention of Communist support of terrorist groups. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

We have been over this. Criticisms of communism must remain specific to things that are unique to communism or at least more prevalent in communist societies than in others. Many governments have sponsored terrorism; and in any case, "terrorism" is a POV term. Their supporters call them freedom fighters. A neutral way to refer to them would be paramilitary organizations. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The text already states "claimed" terrorist organisations. And there is no such requirement that you demand, communists are quick to criticize claimed state terrorism by capitalist states, so obviously similarly Communist states can also be criticized. No double standard. Ultramarine 19:59, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I was not aware that wikipedia was run by communists who insist on writing about presumed terrorism by capitalist states as an established fact. You are trying to excuse your POV by saying that your opponents also have a POV. Well, of course they do, but their POV is not endorsed by wikipedia. Neither should yours be. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 22:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

See for example State terrorism.Ultramarine 22:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Science

False statement that pure science and military technology saw remarkable progress. At best, they were occasionally advanced. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

You are mistaken. Pure science and military technology did see remarkable progress in the Soviet Union, and there is ample evidence for this. I will go look for specific examples. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Good. Until you do, your claims are original research and not allowed by wikipedia policy. Ultramarine 22:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Numbers killed

No mention of the numbers given by the Black Book of Communism, by Yakovlev, or the estimated total of about one hundred million dead reached in several different overviews. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

There is no consensus among historians as to the exact numbers; the margin of error is immense. As such, "tens of millions" is the most accurate statement that can be made. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, one can be extremely accurate in citing exactly what sources estimate. We aren't here to do original research.--Silverback 17:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Certainly. I would welcome a paragraph that discussed various estimates without showing preference to any of them. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Why have you then deleted such information and a table with references that mention such estimates. Again, give sources for your claims. Ultramarine 18:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Because the table gives more weight to the numbers in the Black Book as opposed to any others. We must either have a table including numbers from all sources or no table at all. I'd go for the latter option. As for my claims, I am merely claiming that there are quite a few widely different estimates for the number of deaths in Communist states. This is evidently true from your own sources. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, claims without sources. I have given extensive sources, give yours, otherwise it is original research. My sources give a total of about one hundred million deaths by several different researchers. Ultramarine 20:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Czarist Russia

No mention that the human rights violations were less severe during that era compared to the Soviet Union.

Compared to the Soviet Union before 1956, that is. Your article gives the impression that Stalin-scale violations were carried out by all Soviet leaders, which is false. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Even after 1956, Soviets prohibiting emmigration even to the extent of shooting or imprisoning people trying to escape, in continued to suppress and censor the press, required papers and permissions to travel even within the country and supported other murderous regimes, including China and N. Vietnam. The Sovient Union itself remained a gulag of exploited captive labor, forced to work at wage levels set by the state, and not allowed to seek their market value elsewhere. --Silverback 17:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Restrictions on emigration are the least of the human rights violations that the Soviet Union has been accused of, and in any case both Czarist Russia and present day capitalist states hold strong barriers against the flow of people to or from the country (or both). "Murderous regimes" is POV. "Exploited captive labor" and the idea that market wages are better than state wages are also extremely POV. This article shall not become a libertarian rant like so many others on wikipedia. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:49, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me, I was writing on the "Talk:" page. Your dismissal of restrictions on emigration is just as POV. Emigration is the most basic right, and should have been important to the communists too, if they were at all ethical. If they had allowed emmigration, they could have claimed that the oppressed workers had consented to their rules by staying, i.e., they were voluntary members of the society. By not being a voluntary society, they make it clear they are an oppressive one.--Silverback 18:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Your argument is no excuse for deleting all the referenced information. Numerous violations certainly continued after Stalin, including executions and incarceration of political opponents, although on a much smaller scale. However, I will clarify the smaller scale. Ultramarine 18:27, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

That was my point: That Stalin, not the Soviet Union in general, was much worse than the Czars. Thank you for acknowledging it. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I have not acknowledged something like that. Lenin do not compare favorably with his direct executions of hundred of thousands of political opponents and I will add statistics for the post-Stalin perioed that is not flattering. Ultramarine 20:01, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

WWII

No mention of the hope for another great war, the direct support for German rearmament, and prohibition of cooperation against Hitler when he took power. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The Western powers also hoped for a war between Germany and the USSR. Stalin prohibited cooperation against Hitler without expecting this to lead to Hitler's rise to power, and Communists fought an ideological, political and occasionally military struggle against fascism throughout the 1930s. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, claims without sources. I have given extensive sources, give yours, otherwise it is original research. Ultramarine 20:05, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Imperialism

Excludes mentioning many cases of imperialism by Communist states, most importantly those by Lenin's regime. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

"Imperialism" is POV. Anti-communists called it imperialism, but communists called it liberation. Same perspectives as with the American invasion of Iraq. If we mention the incidents, both POVs must be given. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, no double standard. Communists criticize capitalist states for imperialism, thus similar actions by Communist states can also be criticized. Ultramarine 20:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I was not aware that wikipedia was run by communists who insist on criticizing capitalist states for imperialism. Again, you are trying to excuse your POV by saying that your opponents also have a POV. Well, of course they do, but their POV is not endorsed by wikipedia. Neither should yours be. In other words: Wikipedia does not give the US invasion of Iraq as an example of imperialism. It says that the issue is controversial, with some claiming it as an example of imperialism and others saying it was liberation. Likewise, similar military actions by communist states should be noted as controversial, with some claiming them as examples of imperialism and others saying they were examples of liberation. No double standard. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 22:07, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

It is certainly a double standard that Lenin should be allowed to criticize capitalist states for imperialism and then not allow criticism of him when he does the same thing.Ultramarine 22:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Critics of communism

No mention of the many historians, economists, and philosophers who have criticized communism. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Don't we have a list of anti-communists somewhere? If yes, we should link to it. If not, we might consider creating one. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Obviously this article should mention the prominent researchers and critics, as the correct and referenced version does. You have given no explanation for your deletion of those mentioned. Ultramarine 20:04, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The deleted well-referenced facts and arguments

There has been no objections to the "List of proposed changes III" above and now more than two weeks have passed since it was written. Therefore, I will shortly restore the currently deleted well-referenced facts unless there is referenced arguments against this. Please follow Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, and Wikipedia: NPOV. I again invite factual discussions regarding the content, please avoid smear tactics and ad hominem. Ultramarine 02:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I shall put forward my arguments shortly. Please do not ignore the ongoing RfAr. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 06:47, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Ultramarine, the superior version is not automatically the one with the largest number of footnotes. In this case the version that you were working on in your sandbox would be a good research paper, but would not work as an encyclopedic entry. "Criticisms of communism" are supposed to be the subject of the article, not necessarily the source for the article. The article is supposed to describe and summarize these criticisms in a fair and neutral manner, as opposed to turning the article itself into something that falls under the category of these criticisms. 172 07:38, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

No examples, no references, no attempt to respond to the "List of proposed changes". I will shortly restored the deleted well-referenced facts unless factual, referenced explanations for the deletions of well-referenced facts are given. Ultramarine 08:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

As alluded to on Wikipedia:Content forking, "Criticism of X" titles are inherently non-neutral, because they present the debate one-sidedly and imply that the only discussion of a subject is negative. See Talk:Criticism of Christianity#Rendering_this_article_neutral for the many examples of where "Criticism of X" articles have become perennial and unresolvable neutrality disputes, and a discussion of how to address this. Uncle G 03:38, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

• I'm by no-means on the same side of the fence politically as Ultramarine, but I agree that if you have a "Criticism of X" article, then, the POV argument goes out the window. I wouldn't expect to see pro-capitalist arguments on the Anti-capitalism page. Camillus^{talk|contribs} 09:50, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • There are no arguments at all on that page... And it is certainly against wiki policy to have an article with one-sided POV. Any "criticisms of X" article should focus on the arguments against X, of course, but it should present both the supporters' and opponents' views on those arguments. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 14:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
• It should be noted that there are many "criticisms" articles, especially for political ideologies: Category:Criticisms. The other side have previously expressed that the size of the article makes it impossible to incorporate in the communism article. Initially it was 172 who created this article and moved the original content here. However, if someone has a better solution, please state it so we can discuss it. Ultramarine 13:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Not all of the articles, or even most of the articles, in that category are "Criticism of X" articles, so that point is largely irrelevant. As for the better solution, it is the one discussed at Talk:Criticism of Christianity#Rendering_this_article_neutral: Take everything out of this article and place it in neutral-scope articles, use summary style to connect the neutral-scope articles to Communism or to Communist state as their parent articles, and then redirect this article to Communism. For examples: Place the discussion of Marxist theory that is here in the neutral-scope Marxist theory article. Create neutral-scope Economic and social development of Communist states, Human rights in Communist states, Censorship in Communist states, and similar articles as breakout articles of Communist state, and address the whole discussion, not just the side with the criticisms, in each. Uncle G 03:27, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Something like that seems like a good idea. A short summary should be in the communism article. What is the opinion of the other side, it was they who wanted all the criticisms to be in this article? Ultramarine 14:12, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
      • It does indeed seem like a good idea. However, we should not rush into it. The content dispute in this article needs to be resolved before we can move any content to other articles - otherwise we'll just end up with a bunch of new, separate disputes. I suggest we use this article as a temporary workspace, and, once consensus has been achieved, break it up into the smaller neutral-scope articles discussed above. For one thing, all we have here at the moment are criticisms of economic and social development, human rights, and censorship in communist states. If we are to write neutral-scope articles, we would need a somewhat equal number of statements of support for the practices of communist states. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 23:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
        • The whole point is that the dispute is unresolvable, by the very one-sided nature of the article. I suggest that you take a tack different from waiting for the impossible to happen, and reduce the problem in stages. Start with the easiest: Work on moving the Marxist theory content from here to Marxist theory. It will give you experience in what you need to do to expand the coverage to include all sides of the debate. Uncle G 05:37, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
          • You miss the point entirely, this article is a solution to the problem of a clique controlling the communism article which did not allow the critical information in there. You "solution" just goes back to the original problem, which is articles controlled by cliques hostile to criticism.--Silverback 08:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
        • I think that the primary problem is the unexplained and massive deletions of well-referenced material. A move will by itself not change this. As long as the other side refuse to do research and instead just blankly deletes well-referenced information, the conflict will probably continue regardless of in which article the material is. There is also a problem with moving only Marxist theory since one the most important questions is the implications of the real world results of the Communist states for Marxist theory. Should this section remain or be moved? These are two problems that probably should be resolved before a move.

I have never objected to more supporting statements of the kind Mihnea Tudoreanu argues for in this article. Of course, they should have reliable and verifiable sources. Note also that NPOV is not an equal space policy as Mihnea Tudoreanu seems to think, if there are no substantial verifiable arguments for a position, then none should be added. If the other side starts doing often tedious research and cite sources, as I have done, instead of just doing easy and quick unexplained deletions, then hopefully this conflict can be resolved. Ultramarine 06:56, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV does require the more-or-less equal discussion of facts from both sides. See WP:NPOV#Bias: "If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." But, in any case, I have always appreciated your zeal and the effort you put into your research, one-sided though it may be. I have collected a number of sources on human rights and economic development in communist states, and I am currently in the process of going through them. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 21:02, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

"Facts" are not POV, if one side has a lot more facts, those should not be trimmed down to match the paltry number of facts on the other side. It is fine to let the contrary side of an argument have it say, but there is no need to replicate in this article, defenses or apologias already present in the communism article. After all the communism article did not allow the critical information in there.--Silverback 08:05, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I have not made a secret of my assumption that Ultramarine is editing in bad faith. I am more than willing to put that behind me and make ammends if Ultramarine turns out to be willing to give equal weight in the article to assertions made by pro-communist sources. In my experience, he has had a bad habit of framing every pro-communist statement within a "Communists say X, BUT..." format. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 23:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Finally, I believe we should enlist the help of native Russian speakers, because the majority of pro-Soviet works have quite naturally been published in the Soviet Union. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 23:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

• Please, I have asked that you should avoid smear tactics and ad hominem. I have given extensive, verifiable, and reliable source for the statements. Contrast this to the unverifiable original research in your version. If you have some statements backed by reliable and verifiable sources they should of course be added. Remember, we are writing a reliable and verifiable encyclopedia. Ultramarine 06:56, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Please, Ultramarine, it is quite evident that your research was focused almost exclusively on anti-communist sources. Of course, this practice is not against any wiki policy, but let me put it this way: If you arrived upon an article entitled "criticisms of communism" and found that it consisted entirely of (well-referenced) pro-communist arguments against various criticisms, what would be your opinion of the author? I daresay you would suspect him/her of editing in bad faith to support a communist agenda. Now turn that example around and draw your own conclusions about my views regarding your editing pattern. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 20:52, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Location of the recent discussion

I believe it would be much more visible at Talk:Criticisms of communism/new discussion than here (at the bottom of an already excessively long page), and keeping it updated in both places would be unnecessarily difficult. I would see it as a sign of good faith if you agreed to continue our discussion there. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:46, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Obviously the recent discussions about this article should be on this page and not hidden somewhere else. The standard procedure is to archive the oldest parts, not removing the newest. Ultramarine 18:50, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Very well, we will continue our discussion here. I know better than to attempt to enter another argument with you. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course the recent discussion should be here, however, have these moves been done correctly, I believe there is a proper way to do this so that history is preserved in order to comply with some kind of licensing arrangement. Perhaps we need an admin to review this, or are you sure it is correctly done?--Silverback 19:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure it is correctly done. I put up a notice calling for admin help a long time ago, but no one replied. It seems this article is a pariah of the wiki and no one wants to touch it (just look at how the RfAr has stagnated). -- Mihnea Tudoreanu

Introduction and note on communist states

I raise the following objections to Ultramarine's most recent edits:

1. The fact that the phrase "communist state" is an oxymoron/paradox according to Marxist theory must not be removed from the introduction to the criticisms of communist states. Neither must the definition of a "communist state" (a single-party state where the ruling party officially proclaimed its adherence to Marxism-Leninism). Before we present any criticisms, we must briefly explain what the object of those criticisms is.
2. The sentence "If they did follow Marxist theory, then the theory failed to work in the real world" is POV, because the idea that the communist states were failures is POV.

   Perhaps it could be noted that the states have so far, "failed" to fade way, or whatever it is that the dictatorship of the proletariat is supposed to do.--Silverback 00:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

   If you failed to do something, that implies that you tried. The Communist states never got around to trying to fade away. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 02:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

   The purges were an attempt to fade away, by eliminating people that were perceived as problematic, as was the intense propaganda in the schools. These were attempts to change human nature through "education" and pruning.--Silverback 12:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

   I am not aware of any communist describing either the purges or the education system as attempts to make the state or anything else "fade away". And the majority of communists don't believe in the existence of "human nature", so they do not think there is anything to change. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 01:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

   Not believing in human nature is the very reason they consider it changable in re-education camps for example, although when persons are particularly intransigent, they are purged or imprisoned. The communists may not speak in terms of making the state fade away in justifying the purges, but they do point to problematic people and movements as justifying the various state apparati used to control the population, as if it is the victims that are responsible for the state.--Silverback 12:36, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

3. A less important point: The note on "Communism" vs "communism" should go in a separate paragraph of the intro rather than in the italicized header. It makes the header too long and unaesthetic.

-- Mihnea Tudoreanu 22:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

1. Your are arguing that the Communist argument should be presented without the counter-argument regarding the dictatorship of the proletariat. This is POV.

It's not an argument, it's a definition. The term "communist state" was never used by the communists themselves. You seem to believe that any mention of the paradoxical nature of this term automatically implies an argument that the communist states went contrary to communist theory. That is not the case. A supporter of the "communist states" would argue that the term is an oxymoron, but the states themselves did indeed follow communist theory by representing the socialist stage of society. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 02:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

2. Will tweak that.

Thank you. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 02:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

3. As agreed not an important point. I feel that beginning the article with this paragraph feels awkward, the intro should be a brief summary. Maybee the header could be split into two paragraphs? Ultramarine 22:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, I suppose that would work. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 02:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Mihnea Tudoreanu, why have you completely deleted the paragraph regarding the dictatorship of the proletariat? This is a gross npov violation that will be restored unless there is an explanation. Also, why should Trotsky's follower be mentioned specifically in the intro, there are many other communist groups who have criticzed the Communist states? Third, the explanation of capitalisation must be first in the article since capitalisation is important also in the intro. Ultramarine 23:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the dictatorship of the proletariat was discussed elsewhere. But I will agree with including it in the general description of communist states. Trotsky should be mentioned because he was the first; at the very least, the intro must not give the impression that communist criticism of communist states is a recent development. Finally, as a personal request, please stop referring to everything as "a gross npov violation". I have a theory that if we try to be more friendly we might actually end up getting more work done. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 02:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Ultramarine, why did you revert all my changes to the first paragraph of the intro? Most of them were tweaks for style and flow; the only significant content change that I see is replacing Marxism with Marxism-Leninism, which is an important point. The Communist states did not merely claim to be following Marxism; they claimed to be following Marxism-Leninism. As a general request, please do not revert edits that merely rephrase something rather than actually altering content. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 02:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

In addition, I would ask you not to integrate any of the information from the intro into the main body of the article, because I will do a thorough revision of the body of the article by the end of this week. Arguing over changes to it in its current form is therefore a moot point. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 02:24, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

There are some problems with MH's current text.

• 1. "When written as a common noun, with a lowercase "c", they refer to an economic system characterized by collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members; or to the position that such a system is possible and desirable." This seems to be a description of socialism, but communism is generally associated specifically with Marxism.
  • True, my description was too vague. I kept yours, with a couple of tweaks. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 01:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
• 2. Why should Trotsky's followers be mentioned in the general intro? There were other communist critics before him. This seems to be advocacy for one particular branch.
  • The first communist critic of communist states should be mentioned. If it is not Trotsky, please say who it is. The intro must not give the impression that communist criticism of communist states is a recent development. At the very least we must give a date if not a name, for the first criticism. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 01:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Mensheviks were critical before Trotsky. See the section, "Socialist criticisms of the Communist states". I see no reason the Trotsky should be the only mentioned critic in the general intro, especially as he himself has been accused of large scale human rights violations. Ultramarine 20:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
    • We can certainly briefly mention in the intro the early communist criticisms of the Communist states, but as noted that existed before Trotsky and even before Lenin had taken power. Ultramarine 20:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
• 3. Much of the criticism is against all Marxism, not just Marxism-Leninism, as currently stated.
  • But communist states claimed to follow Marxism-Leninism, not just Marxism. This should be mentioned. I will edit the intro to explain that we are giving criticisms of Marxism in general, which apply to the particular version of Marxism that the communist states claimed to follow. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 01:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
• 4. Duplication of arguments, the same thing is stated in two different places in the body. Ultramarine 21:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  • The definition of communism as a stateless system is accepted by all communists, both advocates and opponents of communist states. As such, it cannot be an argument for the view that the communist states did not follow Marxism. I would suggest you edit the body of the text accordingly. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 01:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Please read the whole text. All the information that you placed at the beginning of "Criticisms of 20th century Communist states" are already stated in a better context in "Relevance of the Communist states for Marxist theory". As such, it is duplication that should be removed. Ultramarine 20:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Deletion of consensus version

172, you have without explanation decided to delete much well-referenced material from the article. You have also without giving explanation deleted the consensus that have been painstakingly reached on this subject. Please give sourced explanations for your actions, otherwise I will restore the consensus version. Ultramarine 05:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Restoring the non-advocacy version

Ultramarine has been arguing that it is self-evident that his version of the article, which he is now taken to calling the "consensus version," is the superior one because it happens to contain a relatively large number of footnotes. While his version may be able to serve as a passable research paper, it is not encyclopedic in its content and tone. "Criticisms of communism" are supposed to be the subject of the article, not necessarily the essence of the article. The article is supposed to describe and summarize these criticisms in a fair and neutral manner. Instead, Ultramarine's article starts becoming its own subject, becoming itself a criticism of communism, with the narration generally speaking from the point of view of favorable reviews of works that Ultramarine regards highly, such as the Black Book of Communism and works by RJ Rummel.

I expect Ultramarine, as he did last time, to reply with something along the lines of No examples, no references, no attempt to respond to the "List of proposed changes". I will shortly restored the deleted well-referenced facts unless factual, referenced explanations for the deletions of well-referenced facts are given. I think reasonable users, however, can understand the easily edited problems with this approach to editing articles on Wikipedia. A long, systematically biased article must be critique from a broad level, not on the point-by-point basis suggested by Ultramarine; otherwise, no one will have time to follow the discussion, much less participate in it. 172 05:51, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, your are right. I will respond with No examples, no references. Unless you give sourced examples I will restore the painstakingly reached consensus and restore the now deleted well-sourced information. Ultramarine 05:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Unless you change your versiopn of the article so that it follows the NPOV policy I will restore the neutral version. Because of the NPOV policy the insertion of many footnotes is not a licence to make an article systematically biased. 172 05:57, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I do invite you to participate in building a well-referenced encyclopedia. As such, follow the usual Wikipedia policies and present arguments supported by sources for why the consensus and well-refernced article should be changed. As for now, you make unverifiable claims without sources and examples. Ultramarine 06:00, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

We don't need to make verifiable claims with dicussions and examples on the talk page. Do you dispute my claim that criticisms of communism should be the subject of the article, not the essence of the article? If this is a point of dispute between the two of us, then I will direct you to pages on Wikipedia content policies. 172 06:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

172, please follow Wikipedia policy and present verifiable arguments. Do not delete well-referenced information and ignore the painstakingly reached consensus. Again, I do invite you to participate in building a well-referenced encyclopedia. Ultramarine 06:06, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, do not argue with unverifiable claims. Give exaxmples and use sources as support. Ultramarine 06:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

You know very well that your version is not a "painstakingly reached consensus." What happened was that you were more persistent that all the other editors, who one-by-one gave up reverting your personal version and even participating in the article. And of course my argument is not "verifiable." Talk page discussions do not necessarily involve "verifiable" arguments. There is no published expert peer-review discussion somehow "testing" the neutrality of your version of the article. So Wikipedia editors are just going to have to discuss the neutrality of your version of the article themselves on the talk page here. 172 06:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

172, please read about Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. You are making claims that the article is somehow incorrect. But since you have presented no sources, this is your own original research. This is not allowed. Again, I do invite you to participate in building a verfiable encyclopedia, but please do not make unverfiable original research claims. As you have presented no support for that the article is in any way incorrect except your own opinion, I will shortly restore the well-sourced and consensus version. Ultramarine 06:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

No, I have not been making claims "that the article is somehow incorrect." I have not gotten to the matter of factual accuracy yet. What I have been mentioning concerns neutrality, particularly Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Wikipedia:Verifiability, which you keep citing, does not necessarily relate to a dispute of an article's neutrality on a talk page. Again, there are not published peer-edited scientific 'tests' of the neutrality of particular versions of Wikipedia articles. There is no way of disputing the neutrality of an article based on the assessment of a verfiable source. Perhaps you understand that; and perhaps that's why you keep repeating your claims, as they can be used as grounds for anyone making any article as systematically biased as he or she wishes, so long as he or she can cherry-pick a sufficient number of passages in books for footnotes. 172 06:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you do not seem to undertand NPOV: "The policy of having a neutral point of view is not to hide different points of view, but to show the diversity of viewpoints." NPOV gives you no excuse for deleting well-referenced information. You claim that there are other views and arguments that should also be mentioned. Fine, then do mention them with sources. Do not delete well-referenced information which is not allowed. Ultramarine 06:29, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

If someone started a criticisms of capitalism article in his personal user sub-page, and created an written from a point of view of Marxist publications like New Left Review, Journal of World-Systems Research, Monthly Review, Review of Radical Political Economics, containing hundreds of footnotes from such sources and next-to-none from other sources in order to advance his POV; I'm sure that you agree that the text should be reverted because of the problem of systematic bias. Your version of "criticisms of communism" is systematically biased in the same way as my hypothetical example of the Marxist "criticisms of capitalism" article. Your article has a lot of footnotes, I'll grant you that. But it belongs in a sandbox in a user subpage until it is no longer systematically biased. 172 06:39, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, it is your own unverifiable original research that the article is biased and incorrect, this is not allowed. Contrary to what you seem to think, I would be very happy if someone started to criticze capitalism using sources. Then we can start to discuss the reliablity of the sources. However, to simply delete well-refernced material is not allowed. Again, NPOV gives you no excuse for this. Again, add sourced material if this is missing in order to achieve NPOV, do no delete well-sourced material which is not allowed. Ultramarine 06:45, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, it is your own unverifiable original research that the article is biased and incorrect which is not allowed. What utter nonsense. By your reasoning, there could never be a dispute about neutrality on Wikipedia article talk pages. Sorry, but if someone writes a systematically biased article, he or she can and should expect to get called out on it. Wikipedia is not a soapbox or a propaganda machine. 172 06:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, it is your unsourced opinion that the article is systematicallyb biased. Again, NPOV gives you no excuse for deleting well-sourced information. Again, add sourced material if this is missing in order to achieve NPOV, do no delete well-sourced material which is not allowed. Ultramarine 06:53, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, it is your unsourced opinion that the article is systematically biased. Nonsense, because there could never be a sourced opinion that an article is systematically biased; so, it is utterly unreasonable to ask for one. Your stange interpretation of WP:V does not give you a licence to disregard the policy of "neutral point of view," Wikipedia's most fundamental guiding principle. 172 06:57, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

172, you seems to argue that anything can be deleted from an Wikipedia article simply because someone thinks that it violates NPOV, regardless of how well-sourced it is and without giving any supporting sources or indeed anything except a personal opinion? One of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia is Verifiablity. Without this Wikipedia is nothing, just a battleground for opinions regardless of accuracy. I ask that you participate in building a verifiable encyclopedia. Please, if the article violates NPOV as you say, then add those arguments with sources so that NPOV can be achieved, do not delete simply based on you own opinion. Ultramarine 07:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I am arguing that in certain situations material should be removed from a Wikipedia article because of the possibility that it is a systematic violation of NPOV. However, I do not agree that such action should be taken on a whim "without giving any supporting sources or indeed anything except a personal opinion." And you know that I am not restoring the alternative version of the article on a whim. I am doing so in the context of many unresolved disputes concerning the neutrality of your sandbox version of the article. Those discussions ended when other users concluded that you would not be likely to compromise. What I am doing now is bringing those issues back on the table. 172 07:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Using your arguments regarding NPOV, I could argue that anything in the Lenin article and indeed the article itself should be removed. I could give unsourced hints that the existence of Lenin or major parts of his life is disputed by some unspecified sources and argue that the article is thus systematically biased. Then I would argue that some or all of the article should be removed based on this. I would also refuse to give any sources and refuse to add arguments to the text, instead just insist that the text should be deleted. If you are arguing that Wikipedia policy should be changed to this, then propose this elsewhere. If there are any other issues, regarding for example factual accuracy, please state them. I would be more than willling to discuss them. Ultramarine 07:17, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

In certain situations material should be removed from a Wikipedia article because of the possibility that it is a systematic violation of NPOV. Whether or not this is the right course of action has to be evaluated on a case-by-cased basis by reasonable editors. I don't know about the Lenin example, but a good example of another situation where restoring one version of an article in favor of another is my hypothetical example of how a Marxist could use your arguments here as a license to POV the criticisms of capitalism article. 172 07:20, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

You are proposing a new Wikipedia policy. Please do that using the appropirate channels, not in this article. Again, contrary to what you think, I would be happy if someone started to criticze capitalism using sources. Ultramarine 07:24, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

No, I am talking about NPOV, which happens to be the oldest Wikipedia policy. And don't try to pretend that we all don't know about or remember the many challenges to the neutrality of your article that have plagued this page since September. 172 07:28, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you do not seem to undertand NPOV: "The policy of having a neutral point of view is not to hide different points of view, but to show the diversity of viewpoints." NPOV gives you no excuse for deleting well-referenced information. You claim that there are other views and arguments that should also be mentioned. Fine, then do mention them with sources. Do not delete well-referenced information which is not allowed. Would you support me if I started to delete varous parts of the articles about Marx and Marxism, claiming violation of NPOV and like you refusing to cite sources? Ultramarine 07:30, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Would you support me if I started to delete varous parts of the articles about Marx and Marxism, claiming violation of NPOV and like you refusing to cite sources? I certainly can imagine a situation in which I would support you in removing various parts of an article about Marx or Marxism; assuming that it would be possible to restore a more neutral, collaborative previous version of the article, and assuming that it were so systematically biased that the content generally only represented the POV of publications such as Monthly Review, Journal of World-System Research, Review of Radical Political Economics, Socialist Register, New Left Review, and the like. An article on neo-Marxian discourses on Marx's original works should, of course, discuss research along the lines of stuff published in journals like New Left Review; but if someone uploads content in a Wikipedia article written from such a point of view, it is dubious and should be removed. (By the way, just so that the two of us are on the same page, if you are assuming that I am generally working from a Marxian point of view, you are mistaken. Generally speaking, I'm much more of a Weberian than a Marxist.) You write, You claim that there are other views and arguments that should also be mentioned. Yes, but on an even broader level, your version is biased on an even more profound level. "Criticisms of communism" is the subject of the encyclopedia article, given the article title. Yet in your version the article is a critique of communism from the point of view of the authors of the Black Book, Rummel, et al, and thus happens to become in-and-of-itself what should be subject of the article. In other words, the problem is not merely the usage of certain sources and the lack of other sources, but the basic matters of narrative voice and structure. 172 08:32, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

ArbCom decision

In accordance with Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ultramarine, I will be blocking for disruption any users who engage in stale reverting between two different versions. You are directed to collaborate on a single version. This will be your only warning. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 07:57, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

The decision is only binding on Ultramarine, Pmanderson, and Robert A. [2] Since I support your efforts, I will now pledge to follow the "one-revert rule" on this page. Indeed, I ask you that you help me make my plege binding by my choice; please block me if I somehow slip-up and violate the "one-revert rule" here. 172 08:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)