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Sex, state and church: conflicting attitudes in Iran, Cameroon and the UK

From Cameroonian gay men gaining asylum, an Iranian woman facing stoning, to Dr Jeffrey John being denounced, how do we view the public attitude to a private act?

Dr Jeffrey John, outside the St Albans Cathedral in 2004
Dr Jeffrey John, criticised for his sexuality when put forward as Bishop of Southwark. Photograph: PA Photo/PA

Considering that sex must be just about the ultimate private activity it causes a great deal of public anguish and anger for individuals and policymakers alike. It's all over the newspapers again today.

Gay politics in the Church of England, an alleged adulterer facing stoning to death in Iran, not to overlook that Cameroonian gay man known only as HT who made history in the British supreme court when he and co-plaintiffs got an appeal court ruling overturned in favour of their asylum application.

It's not all about conflicting state attitudes towards aspects of sexuality, let alone about state repression. State attitudes – tolerant and repressive – reflect divergent attitudes among individual citizens and Britain's current stance on sexual mores is as tolerant as Cameroon's is not.

And as Britain's was not tolerant either when I was growing up in the 1950s where "queers" were even less tolerated than Catholics and communists or people who didn't wear hats in public. With hindsight I can see that you had a much better chance of being left in peace to follow predatory ambitions if you were a respectable child molester in those days. Oh yes, it was also OK to smoke like a train and drive the car on a skinful.

How times change and we adapt to them. But not everyone. When Dr Jeffrey John, a partnered but celibate Anglican, was being lined up as next Bishop of Southwark, someone in a position of trust leaked his name and the usual suspects came forward to denounce him. I heard one on the radio yesterday sounding very un-Christian.

It's the second time John has been kicked into touch. I'm told he's a clever man, a gifted preacher, rather austere but much loved by his flock. But as the Guardian's Stephen Bates wrote in his book, A Church at War, it's never enough for the schismatic tendency within the Evangelical movement — they're a bit like Trots, keen on splitting in the name of doctrinal purity – which seems determined to destroy dear old C of E.

They tried and failed over the ordination of women – too many of them – and are now trying again over gays, a more promising target because it feeds on deep prejudices in the developing world where Christianity is strong and powerful in ways it has ceased to be across much of the west, though not the US.

Much of that residual strength is politically reactionary, a response to liberalism and secularism, nowhere more clearly demonstrated than in the present pope's determination both to suppress the scandal of priests abusing children – oh dear, sex again – on all five continents but also to blame the problem on the liberal, secular enemy.

As an insight that explanation is neither wise nor true. It also seems too close for comfort to the treatment of Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, the 43-year-old Iranian woman convicted of adultery, given 99 lashes plus imprisonment, now facing execution.

By what method? In case you don't know the details, by being buried up to her neck and stoned to death, using stones big enough to injure but not to kill immediately.

At this point, many atheists will reach for their copy of Richard Dawkins and blame it all on religion. It's a bit more complicated than that, rooted deeply in ambiguous human attitudes towards sexuality and the tolerance of difference. Godless regimes do pretty nasty things too, don't they Joe and Adolf.

Today's case which most directly affects us as a society this morning is not shabby politicking in Tehran or Trollopian manoeuvres in Southwark but the Supreme Court ruling on the gay asylum seekers. Alas, my own response to the learned judge's unanimous ruling – you can read it here (pdf) and the press summary here is rather closer to the Daily Mail's than I would wish.

The judges ruled that asylum seekers could not be deported on the ground that they could conceal their sexual nature in their home country if that is what is needed to avoid persecution or worse. Appellant HT said he'd been attacked by a mob which tried to cut off his penis after being seen kissing a man in Cameroon.

That doesn't sound very nice, does it? HT fled to another European country and was arrested en route for Montreal – Cameroon is Francophone – when caught at Gatwick travelling on a false passport. He duly claimed asylum here, not in Canada. "You cannot live as a gay man in Cameroon,'' he told the court.

The court agreed. Assorted chaps in wigs said HT's internationally-recognised human rights (HJ, an Iranian also appealed) depend on him being able to express his sexuality and not to pretend. The Mail got very excited because of Lord Rodger's contribution, which is worth quoting:

"To illustrate the point with trivial stereotypical examples from British society: just as male heterosexuals are free to enjoy themselves playing rugby, drinking beer and talking about girls with their mates, so male homosexuals are to be free to enjoy themselves going to Kylie concerts, drinking exotically coloured cocktails and talking about boys with their straight female friends," he observed.

Judges are no different from the rest of us. They sometimes like to show off. So his nibs may have said to Lady R over breakfast "D'you know what, I think I'm going to get the Mail to print a picture of Kylie over the headline 'What planet is he on?' today. I'm in the mood."

But is it right? Are they all right? Today's other Mail report of the case suggests that 97% of asylum applications based on a "well-founded fear of persecution" – the core test – arising from sexuality are rejected, well above the 77% overall average.

After the court of appeal's decision – in effect that HT and HJ could stay in the closet – all sides agree that the acceptance rate is likely to fall towards the 77% level. It's never easy to evaluate a well-founded fear and many asylum seekers are actually economic migrants.

Who can blame them for trying? But who can blame us for saying we can't let everyone – straight, gay or otherwise persecuted – into this tight little island where jobs are currently in short supply and the pressure on public services is likely to increase?

And is it an intolerable denial of human rights to maintain a discreet pose about one's own sexual emotions in public? I'm not sure it is. In Britain gays had to do it most of the time – perhaps not in Soho – until the 1967 reforms legalised gay sex over 21, creating rights which have been expanded as tolerance and mutual respect have grown since then. Some gays prefer to keep it that way, thank you, David Laws being a topical case in point until the tabloids outed him.

But all of us surely have to exercise discretion about what we say, do and even wear in certain public places and situations, don't we? It's a matter of common sense and delicacy, even respect. I would not dream of snogging Mrs White – do we still say "snogging"? – in public because I know it would probably offend many people, especially young people. Oldies! Disgusting!


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  • theleedspessimist theleedspessimist

    8 Jul 2010, 1:19PM

    I would point out, as Dawkins does in the God Delusion and in other works, that Hilter and Stalin created cults of personality based on eugenics and Marxism respectively.

    Their aims were not anti- religious, nor did they criticise it. Atheism wasn't part of their political aims, totalitarian dictactorship was.

  • merdeka merdeka

    8 Jul 2010, 1:39PM

    if you live in london it is possible and probably fun to conceal a secret double life. if you live in a tribal society or a village where everybody knows you and your family it is not. he could move to a city in his own country but he won't escape from his connections,everybody knows everybody's business

  • tonkatsu tonkatsu

    8 Jul 2010, 2:05PM

    I have to object to the casual link to the private act of sex and a persons sexual orientation.

    My husband is Japanese so, in line with his upbringing we never do public displays of affection - even holding hands. However, to conceal our relationship to our friends, family, work colleagues, landlord and neighbours etc would be impossible in practice.

    I respect most of what you have said and understand that this was not your intention, but by making homosexuality or heterosexuality just about sex you give fuel to the homophobes who accuse us of thrusting sex into the faces of them and their children, simply by existing and not expending immense amounts of effort and risking our own mental health by keeping our family-life hidden.

    You wouldn't snog her in public but can you imagine the difficulties you would face if you had to pretend she didn't exist? e.g. hand-holding, living arrangements, financial arrangements, the freedom to start a family, the use of gender specific personal pronouns, erasing her from any anecdotes or descriptions of recent activities, allowing her to attend events such as work dinners, weddings or funerals and how you could justify her presence there and so on.

    England is pretty good these days but not perfect, and i'm a fairly private person so these are all real situations that I have to deal with every day - If imprisonment or death was at stake rather than just some social awkwardness then I don't think I would cope.

  • tonkatsu tonkatsu

    8 Jul 2010, 2:11PM

    Some gays prefer to keep it that way, thank you, David Laws being a topical case in point until the tabloids outed him.

    Exactly... despite the fact that he felt the need to try to conceal his relationship, it was found out. If this were Iran he would then have been hanged.

  • chesil12 chesil12

    8 Jul 2010, 2:12PM

    Michael, you are right that many gay men kept their sexuality secret in this country and still do. In my late 20's I have not experienced what it must feel like to be "illegal" for being gay.

    Many, many bad things happened to the unlucky ones who were caught. But what we didn't do, by and large, is excute them. Which in Iran they do. It's ok for some. I'm quite straight looking (hate that term, whatever it means) but what if you are camp by nature, cannot butch up for normal day to day life. Or you live with your partner and get caught or ratted on by a neighbour or relative who you thought you could trust?

    It is rediculous of you to compare the plight of gay men in the 40s and 50s over here to what awaits a gay man in some countries to which gay men could be deported. Only a straight man would have made those comments.

    Try hiding your hetrosexual life for a month Michael. Move the wife out, don't be seen with women in public watch what you say to family and friends. It's not that easy. As David Laws found out - he did, after all, get caught.

    The difference is, Mr Laws won't be walking to the gallows for his "crime" will he?

  • lfirth lfirth

    8 Jul 2010, 2:29PM

    "You wouldn't snog her in public but can you imagine the difficulties you would face if you had to pretend she didn't exist? e.g. hand-holding, living arrangements, financial arrangements, the freedom to start a family, the use of gender specific personal pronouns, erasing her from any anecdotes or descriptions of recent activities, allowing her to attend events such as work dinners, weddings or funerals and how you could justify her presence there and so on."

    I agree with tonkatsu, White has completely failed to empathise in this abstract situation. The fact is, as White mentions, Adolf and Joe, their regimes were attempts to assimilate the public with the private: to the extent where, in the name of this assimilation, the totalitarian state would sooner destroy the individual than condone "dissent", as they see it.

    There is little difference between this and modern evangelical Christianity, except they had and have different figure-heads and titular "isms" attached to them. In fact, this type of Christianity has little to do with "God" than the idea of a "Godly" society, whose political enemies happen to correspond with those of the Church. In this sort of political situation, it is the same to say "keep it hidden from the public" as it is to say "keep it hidden from yourself", as this is how totalitarian ideologies operate.

  • vauxhalldave vauxhalldave

    8 Jul 2010, 2:32PM

    You weren't discreet enough not to tell us publicly that Mrs White is actually your Mrs and therefore your heterosexual partner. I presume therefore that you engage in heterosexual sex with this partner. Most people considering your age and the fact that you are walking together would also assume that you are partners and heterosexual. Try being your age and unmarried and spending time with other unmarried men your age or walking with them, would people speculate at your sexuality? Of course they would. Try hiding your sexuality your whole life even from those who are your friends and family and who most people would turn to for affirmation and support of their relationships and loves, for fear they will cut you from their lives or worse. How much stress does that cause on mental and physical heath? Try living in a country where if you slipped up and were found out would mean the loss of partner, friends, family, job, liberty or life or endangerment to others. I think it is cruel and ignorant of you to compare your not giving your wife a peck in public because others might snigger with the risks and fears that gay and lesbian people face particularly in virulently homophobic states ruled by religious fundamentalism and hatred towards my fellow Lesbians and gays. Its even more outrageous that you seem to imply that it is only respectful for gay men and lesbians to hide their sexuality in public.

  • chesil12 chesil12

    8 Jul 2010, 2:40PM

    Michael, I hope you are reading the comments I and others have made below your article. You might want to "think" again. Really disappointed you could have written such an unthinking piece, normally you are very good.

  • StMichaelTraveler StMichaelTraveler

    8 Jul 2010, 2:40PM

    Is God dead--- or religion has become irrelevant to the Western Societies?
    The question of sex, religion, state and church is relevant to our Western societies. Could our society apply punishment using the Old Testament standard or practically irrelevant to the standard of judgment and law in our societies?

    The following sections of the bible (the Old Testament) define the punishments for committing adultery:

    Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery."
    Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
    Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
    Proverbs 6:32 "But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself." He destroys himself by being put to death as shown above.
    Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by playing the whore, she profanes her father: she shall be burnt with fire." Why should only a daughter of a priest get burnt to death if she profanes herself? Why can't this law apply to all daughters?
    Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

    I could only surmise on Moslem religion, I would think their rules are based on the Old Testament, a common standard for Judo-Christian-Moslem religions. I am repulsed by killing of any person irrespective of any justification a State or government may offer. I find imposition of death by state-religion using any method to impose death to be barbaric and unacceptable being Koran or the Old Testament.

    However, adultery is considered a recreation in many western Christian societies. Fathers are not sure the children they had supported and cared for were conceived by someone else. Is this an issue of morality or social contract?

    Are the Old Testament rules for adultery and killing a person irrelevant for our modern societies? Is religion dead, practically speaking, in the Western societies?

  • RichardKirker RichardKirker

    8 Jul 2010, 3:30PM

    Michael White writes "But who can blame us for saying we can't let everyone – straight, gay or otherwise persecuted – into this tight little island where jobs are currently in short supply and the pressure on public services is likely to increase?"

    In my experience of gay asylum seekers their desire to work and pay taxes in the UK has only been exceeded by the folly of the government denying them the chance to do either even when they would have been the most able candidate. UKplc has not helped itself at all by turning away numerous otherwise admirably well qualified (gay) asylum seekers - all it has done is fill posts with less well qualified British citizens starving the country of better talent than it has been able to produce itself. Such a policy contributes to economic decline.

    Surely the irony of a Conservative minister welcoming the Supreme Court 's humane and just ruling - which the Labour government resisted tooth and nail - cannot be lost even on Guardian columnists.

  • templethinker templethinker

    8 Jul 2010, 4:49PM

    This is an unfortunate blog.

    The Supreme Court's judgment was not only fair, it was unimpeachable in its logic. Its only fault was the crass and patronising remark by Lord Rodgers trivialising the issue and belittling gay men by talking about the 'right' to drink elaborate cocktails and talk about Kylie. Does he think some of us wouldn't prefer to talk about rugby and drink beer? Or that it might cause justifiable offence both inside and outside the gay community to reduce this issue to such trivialities? This is much more important than this. It is about the right to live your life as you are without fear of persecution.

    The point is this: is the gay community a social group, under the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees? Undoubtedly it is, and have been recognised as such for almost two decades (cf Islam v Secretary of
    State for the Home Department; R v Immigration Appeal Tribunal, Ex p Shah
    [1999] 2 AC 629, 643-644). The reason this is important is that, aside from race, religion or political opinion, this is the only ground on which asylum might be claimed. It is surely right that this is so. As Lord Hope says:

    "The group is defined by the immutable characteristic of its members’ sexual
    orientation or sexuality. This is a characteristic that may be revealed, to a greater or lesser degree, by the way the members of this group behave. In that sense, because it manifests itself in behaviour, it is less immediately visible than a person’s race. But, unlike a person’s religion or political opinion, it is incapable of being changed. To pretend that it does not exist, or that the ehaviour by which it manifests itself can be suppressed, is to deny the members of this group their fundamental right to be what they are.behaviour by which it manifests itself can be suppressed, is to deny the members of this group their fundamental right to be what they are." (Para 11)

    That is the critical issue: 'to be what they are'. Michael White talks about not wanting to 'snog' his wife (more trivialities). As others have pointed out above, this isn't just about public affection, it is about life or death. One wonders whether he read the judgment. The Camoroonian man had been attacked by a gang who tried to cut off his penis. The Iranian faces returning to a country about to stone an 'adultorous'. Does he think that gay people can hide their sexuality indefinitely? (Rowing back slightly from my indignation about Lord Rodgers) does he think that Julian Clary would be thought of as straight in Iran or Cameroon? And how does he imagine that a gay man in a small village is expected to live his life in constant fear of attack, subjugating his entire identity in ways that are well known to lead to serious mental illness and even suicide?

    Mr White refers to the 1950s. That was a terrible time for gay men but not a patch on Cameroon. Occasional campaigns leading to imprisonment and general prejudice do not compare to attacks by gangs and fears of murder or execution.

    Of course, it would be grossly disproportionate to allow in every gay man (and some lesbians - though the reality is that, as a group, they face far less persecution in the developing world) who faces more prejudice than in 21st century Britain. That would be unsustainable. But where just to be open about one's identity causes persecution - whether by the state or by non-state actions that the state does not prevent - we have a moral duty to grant asylum.

  • fibmac70 fibmac70

    9 Jul 2010, 1:06PM

    How times change and we adapt to them. But not everyone. When Dr Jeffrey John, a partnered but celibate Anglican, was being lined up as next Bishop of Southwark, someone in a position of trust leaked his name and the usual suspects came forward to denounce him. I heard one on the radio yesterday sounding very un-Christian.

    Dr John may be gifted and loved by his flock
    He may well be a man of many parts
    But didn't the synod rule in Keeler vs Clock
    On the separation of vicars and tarts ?

  • MikeWhitereplies MikeWhitereplies

    9 Jul 2010, 1:33PM

    Staff Staff

    a thoughtful thread and i will contemplate the lack of empathy of which I am accused. At first glance I'm not sure I'm convinced that the public hiding of feelings is an intolerable burden unless you are the sort of person who thinks all such inhibition is wrong.

    Surely people hide their feelings all the time, for one reason or another? Unrequited love is one obvious and painful example. An illicit affair in the office is another. It's standard procedure nowadays - as it was not years ago - for men not to behave " inappropriately" with colleagues at work - or elsewhere.

    Or am I missing something?

  • tonkatsu tonkatsu

    9 Jul 2010, 3:35PM

    @MikeWhitereplies

    I think you are mostly right - but the difference is that it's not just feelings, but a whole situation, that's being hidden.

    I realised I was gay when I was 13 but didn't feel comfortable telling anyone until I was 17... although it was hard it was just a case of hiding feelings...

    Should somebody choose to act on those feelings (as I have done by entering into a civil partnership) however, then it's a whole load of practical arrangements that need to be concealed (your David Laws example is but one instance of the impracticality/danger of this).

    So then the question really becomes 'should we expect such people to not act on their feelings' which as far as I can see runs counter to the human right to a private and family life.

  • chesil12 chesil12

    9 Jul 2010, 9:34PM

    Michael, yes, you are missing something. You are missing the point that "gayness" is not just about hiding your partner, or indeed not having one at all.

    Ok, so you don't "come out". You fear the questions being asked so you don't have a same sex partner. But then the next fear is why don't you have a wife. So you marry. But then, why no kids? So you have them. But then your wife starts wondering, little things bother her. She talks to friends, who talk to friends. Rumour starts, people start to notice little "things" not quite right. Suddenly you are outed. To a possible death.

    Being gay, just like being straight, is not just about sex and a partner. Let put it another way. Could you live a total gay life? Could you hide every aspect of your life?

    And the point you make about people being discrete is just not valid. People WERE outed when it was illegal in the UK. David Laws, the example you used before, had very close friends who suspected or knew according to reports. What if one of them "grassed" him up. Or a jealous lover reported him to the police. Or venged wife? All of these scenarious would lead to a death sentence in some countries.

    You simply imagine that it is just about not having a sexual relationship, or indeed being "discrete". But it is not enough to just be in the closet, you need a complete double life. We have all know people who we have looked at thought, I'm sure he is gay. Well that rumour could result in death.

    Read up on how difficult some gay men found being in the closet when it was illegal here and you will be surprised at who betrayed who. In some cases it was other gay men protecting themselves by "dropping" other gay men in it.

    So many issues you have not thought about, so yes go back and have another think. It's not as simple as you believe.

  • chesil12 chesil12

    9 Jul 2010, 9:38PM

    Oh and Michael, I have no problems with the David Laws of this world keeping their private life private. I respect that choice. But he was outed, against his will. He tripped up. In some countries he would be hanged. And that's what we are talking about - the right of gay men not to be put in that position.

  • lebronjames123 lebronjames123

    9 Jul 2010, 10:04PM

    is it not strange that there is an sudden increase in gayness over the last few 100 years as the Church has been losing its grip all of the western world. This is a new phenomenon and that is because the world is coming to an end , look at climate change, mass starvation in third world, 'sin' and increased wealth and war. think about it.

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