well written

People might feel more sympathy for the shot copper if Plod were more apologetic when they shot or beat an innocent man to death.

In addition the move from mostly consensual traditional policing to high-tech population control and criminalisation of trivial actions such as leaving a bin lid quarter of an inch ajar, a child dropping a few crisps, feeding the ducks, expressing one's point of view .... has alienated many citizens from the law.

Hardly surprising then that an outlaw figure like Mr.Moat is seen as a folk hero.

Forgive the man his crimes, pity the circumstances that turned the innocent child in the photographs into a thug and killer, pity the hunted fugitive living with the knowledge that his death was coming. Fine. However, a wife-beating thug who murdered an innocent man and nearly murdered two other people is not to be praised, is not a legend and deserves nothing more than forgiveness, pity and being forgotten as quickly as possible. The Facebook page shows the strength of opinion that values the alpha male, the use of violence to solve problems, the strong individual fighting against a corrupt society that has the temerity to expect him to follow its rules. That way lies fascism, and we need to be very careful about pandering to such opinions. The Facebook is a clear indication of the unpleasant underbelly of British society.

Well written indeed. I'm ashamed to say my knee-jerk reaction when the news came that Moat had died was to think oh good, and who cares how it happened. After more sober consideration, I find I agree absolutely with your conclusions.

However, It's so hard to see what else could be done with a man like this. If the police had really picked up on the warnings on his release from prison, what would we have them do? Apart from spiriting the girlfriend away to a place of safety (in which case surely others further down the line of Moat's heirarchy of revenge would still have been in danger), the police can't go around arresting people for having murderous thoughts, otherwise we might all be in line for a spell inside.

This man was clearly very mentally ill, and like many in his wretched position didn't get enough help and support, from either the state or perhaps his family and friends. But to make him into a Facebook hero does seem equally unhealthy.

Anyone hear R4's programme about 18th-century highwaymen being hero-worshipped this morning? Plus ca change, sadly.

I agree. The police did themselves no favours, with the exception of PC Rathband. They seem like an incompetent bunch of wannabee SWATs up there. Some of the fat bellied cops looked ridiculous in the Robocop gear.

I'm sorry I really don't understand any sympathy for this guy. He was a murderer. Of course there were reasons why he did this, and of course things could have turned out differently. But at the end of the day people should start taking responsibility for when they kill people....and not blame it on the state or society.

Typical Guardian article...

Hitler would have been a better man if he had had a litle help earlier in his life.

If we knew more about the history of all who commit violent crimes such as this and the recent one in Cumbria maybe we could avert such crimes from taking place in future.

The problem in this case? I am not qualified to make any comment, but after most incidents such as these we can say with hindsight an accident waiting to happen.

As to the facebook thing? Maybe the individuals who have commented need counselling and psychotherapy.

What would make our society a better one? More love.

Out of curiousity I have read the comments on the Facebook site and the vast majority seem to be against this murderer rather than for him.Although I agree there was probably too much media frenzy over him I wont lose any sleep knowing he's no longer with us regardless of how he met his end.

Pity, yes. Sympathy, no. Everyone has something go wrong in their lives, the trick is to learn from it and become a better person. Not to go on a killing rampage.

As for the police, they are highly visible with their guns and helicopters when a high profile case like this happens. However, anyone living in a city will attest when there's antisocial behaviour in evidence you can never find a policeman, and don't even bother going to the local police station in the event of a burglary or identity theft unless all you want is a "crime number".

Of course in a different context but Ned Kelly is a folk hero today in Australia after his violent confrontations with the police.

Let's not forget how many newspapers the Sun have sold because of this. They have no interest at all in the facts of the case, or drawing a line under this tragic incident.

I liked your artical Mr White and obviously the fugitive had to be captured but why oh why did the police have to tazer him twice ? Surly he was'nt going anywhere soon.Given the circumstances couldnt the police just have waited him out so to speak ? I think this action brought the matter to an terrible end which could have been avoided.

Finally, a well balanced approach to this story. I quite agree that the Daily Mail is prurient. It's cloistered readership cannot bear to miss out on other peoples sexual practices but as they lack the vision to see a life beyond marriage, a ceral box family, a detatched house in Berks and a private education, everyone and everything is moralisticaly branded deviant in some respect. Moat does deserve some pity. It is unsurprising things like this happen when people are repeatedly denied requests for psychiatric help. Sky news's publication of pictures of Moat with a gun to his head mean that he did recieve a public execution of sorts. Even in countries which retain the death penalty, it would be considered distasteful to publish images of prisoners final moments to sell to a mawkish public.

You just have to look at the picture of the snarling cop who tazered Moat to know that he was getting payback.

big deal he had a tough childhood, so did many people including me but a tough childhood does not justify a violent or murderous adulthood and it's about time this disgusting society we live in today realises this. pity for RM? a violent abusive agressive threatening individual? not a chance! and as for blaming the media....aren't you being hypercritical Mr. White as you too are using the media to highlight this man. you can't have it both ways! The media in this country, i agree oversteps the mark and one of the many reasons why i don't buy a daily newspaper, Raoul Moat was the cause of the man hunt, not the media, if he didn't want to bring attention to himself or end up dead then he shouldn't have put himself in that position in the first place. may i suggest to you Mr. White you, for one second, put yourself in one of his victim's shoes, present or past, and just imagine for one second how you would feel reading your article? if it was your child he had beaten? Your son he had shot? your daughter he had tried to kill? your brother he had blinded or put a gun to in a shop? Shame on you!

Yes Kerrygold, this may be affirmed by the fact that the snarling cop's face was blanked out in many publications of this photograph but not in others. Not sure if this was intented to protect the cops identity or to prevent readers getting the idea that the cops were getting packback.

1. Moat was arrested 12 times but the police could never get a conviction until the last time. That suggests to me that they had a vendetta against him, and casts doubt on his conviction - if the police are out to get you and won't give up, maybe eventually they'll get the right fiddled evidence or the right sort of jury to convict.

2. While Moat was inside his family split up and he lost his child. Any wonder he resents the police?

3. When a policeman attacked Ian Tomlinson, his colleagues stood around and watched and did nothing. Where was the massive manhunt then?

4. We were told a pack of lies about Jean Charles de Menezes, and another pack of lies about Ian Tomlinson. Now we're told the police were trying to save Moat when they rushed him and tasered him while he held a gun to his head. Anyone believe that?

5. I will not co-operate in any way with any policeman until a decision is made on whether to prosecute the policeman who assaulted Ian Tomlinson.

I'm sorry about the policeman who lost his sight, but if the police take the attitude that they are always in the right and don't need to reconsider the way they work, and in particular their habit of lying whenever one of theirs has done something questionable, then it won't be too long before another Moat has a breakdown and another policeman is in the hospital.

What a load of crap having sympathy for this thug...oh it was his upbringing,,oh it was the tortured mind..bollocks...plenty of people have his upbringing and worse but dont go shooting innocent people..he deserved all he got !!!

Michael White. says -the girlfriend he had abused BUT decided was the one for him.

You do know Michael, that abusers choose targets to get involved with BECAUSE they see that person as being someone who can be abused with impunity? Emotionally weak or damaged perhaps, no close friends or family or friends and family that can be suborned, financially insecure and so on.

Read any standard text on helping those who have been abused, it will list the way abusers think and how they target people and then drive a wedge between them and any help they might find to get out of the abuse.

Same as child abusers choosing vulnerable women with accessible children.

God forbid any of us here get targeted by an abuser... who has decided that - we are the one for them.
Michael White. says -the girlfriend he had abused BUT decided was the one for him.

You do know Michael, that abusers choose targets to get involved with BECAUSE they see that person as being someone who can be abused with impunity? Emotionally weak or damaged perhaps, no close friends or family or friends and family that can be suborned, financially insecure and so on.

Read any standard text on helping those who have been abused, it will list the way abusers think and how they target people and then drive a wedge between them and any help they might find to get out of the abuse.

Same as child abusers choosing vulnerable women with accessible children.

God forbid any of us here get targeted by an abuser... who has decided that - we are the one for them.

Michael, can't wait for your follow up piece when the next psychotic loser unloads 12 gauges of buckshot into you and yours.

Society is to blame? B*ll*x

@Kerrygold

Did you stop to think for a nano-second that the 'snarling' cop may have been screaming at the snapper to get the fck out of harm's way?

Just maybe?

What next - Derrik Bird was simply mis-understood?

And next point:

Abusing a child’s mother is now recognised as abusing the child, if they are aware of it or if their care is affected by it. That must have been the case here.

So why do we have these two illogicalities in the piece:

Michael - the girlfriend he had abused BUT decided was the one for him.

In other words he had decided she and her children were going to be his family…abused as much as he wanted or else!

Then later Michael says- It's a wonder kids grow up at all these days, they are surrounded by such anxiety. Yet most of them are quite safe from the Raoul Moats of this world, WHO TEND TO BE WITHIN THE FAMILY (my caps) – not out there on the street.

Well guess what, that’s what Raoul wanted and got, to be an abuser in a family. When it went wrong he was out in the street (released from prison), and started killing and wounding people because he could not have his woman. So his girlfriend and her children have been abused by him again, as their mother is injured.

TotallyChenille

his man was clearly very mentally ill,

No, abusers are very often not mentally ill, they are entirely in control of what they do. He was not in mental hospital, he was in prison for crimes committed while sane.

Today's Mail accuses Facebook of "displaying a shameful record of moral indifference to its contents", a spot of kettles and pot calling if ever I read one. The paper is brilliant at packaging up prurient filth which, alas, I rarely have time to read, but suspect impressionable teenagers do whenever mum forgets to hide it on top of a high cupboard.

Brilliant!

About time joe bloggs had their say about this physco...so fed up with yuppie mps waffling on about their rights...what about the rights of all innocents who dont live to se another day through no fault of their cos of these so called misunderstood people......crap!!

There is nothing to pity him for. He was a thug using his fists, when that didn't get him what he wanted he turned to a gun.

Strangely enough his so called mental illness stopped him from shooting the mother who also supposedly rejected him, his ideas do not add up.

I feel no pity for Raoul Moat.

He's dead.

I feel some pity for those persons whose lives he has affected with his violent actions.

He was a defective, self-pitying man who did not exercise what I consider to be the most important of the "negative" social virtues, namely self-restraint.

I can feel sympathy for a person who is troubled, feels overwhelmed, is consumed by anger; but when they lash out at others and go on a violent rampage they have failed the test and I withdraw all sympathy and compassion for such a person.

I would consider it an undue demand on my inner resources to be expected to feel pity for Raoul Moat or Derrick Bird.

follow the thread to the video section of cops lashing out in the name of the law: this is Britain, and you're welcome to it.

Perhaps there is something to pity in the way Moat's life ended up - and there can be no doubt the bloodhound mentality of the media exacerbated the significant sense of urgency that informed the police operation.

However, I disagree that we should pity Moat simply because we can identify with the failures his life had presented him with. What about personal responsibility? Or that old fashioned sense of right and wrong? - no adult worthy of the name can adequately dispute those boundaries.

What is more striking - and at the same time unsurprising - is the level of anti-police rhetoric from the usual rent-a-Guardian-commenteer mob. Worthy of the erstwhile Facebook campaign I find.

What a pity.

Right2education

'Strangely enough his so called mental illness stopped him from shooting the mother who also supposedly rejected him, his ideas do not add up.'

Hmm, funnily enough, when you're mentally ill they often don't.

There is no publicly funded organisation more tribal, arrogant or retributive than the police force.

When the shit hits the fan the world in which they operate is the same as their uniform; black and white.

Once the officer at the roundabout had been shot t there was only ever going to be one outcome.

If they take a hit they make damned sure someone pays. In the end, and despite the cock ups, Moat ended up being pretty easy to manage, he was lost, lonely and broken.

To all those who proselytise about just desserts, the millions spent on this whole sorry episode ultimately served no purpose at all.

I have no desire to big up Moat or any of his actions but outright condemnation of the man with monikers such as 'wicked', 'evil' and 'monster' serve no purpose other than to make him and his issues outwith our realm. In reality we as a society could and should have done a great deal more which in this particular case would have also been far more cost effective.

A well written and thought provoking article.

I don't condone what he did, it was abhorrent and I have deep sympathy for the families of all those involved. I can't begin to comprehend what it would feel like to lose a close one in that way.

However the whole episode is rather unique in it's media coverage and it's outcome was, well, sad.

The lack of facts in the case have meant that opinion is polarised and it would be interesting to find out what really motivated his actions to that extent and whether the relative depts, prison service, police, health professionals can learn from it.

I would prefer to live in a society that takes pity and learns rather than one that blames and forgets.

Frothwrath - the probable reason Moat got off so many times is that he is believed to have been a police informer. Its widely known in Newcastle that there was no logicality behind some of his aquittals.

I shed no tears for him, but to deny his humanity is to deny your own. The loons who would have strung him up are no better than the half wits who call him a hero.

At the end of the day, the whole affair was tragic - and most importantly - preventable. From his miserable upbringing through to his consequent bad life choices, through to a penal and justice system that failed him (and us) at every turn, and our society (for which we are all responsible) that allows unfettered access to drugs but wont deal with the consequences.

The amazing thing is there are not more Moats, and its no thanks to our society that there aren't. Cos there are thousands off the same prototype out there, and maybe some of the frothing loons would be better realising this than playing the keyboard hardmen themselves.

Good article

Did I miss something? When did Cameron say that Facebook ought not to be allowed to host such pages? He just forcefully disagreed with the muppets who seemed to think that what Moat was doing was admirable.

That's free speech - you can say idiotic things but don't expect us all to sit quietly and respectfully listening. We're free to call you an idiot.

Whatever personal problems Moat had, how was going on a kill-crazy rampage any kind of appropriate or justifiable response? How is it even particularly understandable? Normal people don't kill random strangers just because they are depressed about their lives. As for him being "hunted" he could have turned himself in at any point.

All credit to Michael White for putting out this much needed well-balanced view on what happened in Northumbria.
Now that it's emerging that Moat recognised his own mental instability and tried repeatedly to get help, but was denied it, the stereotypical picture of him painted by the tabloid media is not only looking increasingly false, it's actually not even in the interests of protecting the wider public.
If Moat had got appropriate help earlier his terrible crimes could have been averted and his victims would have been kept from harm. Why did the prison authorities just release him when they knew that his mental state had seriously deteriorated two days before his release and he was openly threatening to kill? Although they made out a report on his threats and passed it to the Northumbria Police it looks as if they were just passing the buck instead of considering the safety of the public. And why on earth did the Northumbria Police, having received the prison report not act on it? Moat's audio diaries make specific accusations that he was repeatedly harrassed by the same police force. Their own records should show if this really was the case and his paranoia was fed by their actions.

If these questions are dealt with properly and lessons are learned and the appropriate action is taken, the public will be better protected in the future. If instead we rely on simplistic condemnation of the 'Evil Monster' in the tabloid manner we will have learned nothing and we will be just as vulnerable next time. Because after Derrick Bird and Raoul Moat it's likely that we will see this again.

@frothwrath

1. Moat was arrested 12 times but the police could never get a conviction until the last time. That suggests to me that they had a vendetta against him

No, it means that the former girlfriends he regularly abused did not dare to make charges against him out of fear of reprisals/misguided forgiveness. Happens quite a lot in abusive relationships.

And no, no pity for pathetic wifebeaters and bullies like Moat.

Good article. I think something that separates people from 'callous murderers', and also apparently David Cameron, is the ability to feel compassion. What's the point in pity and sympathy if you only reserve them for people you can understand?

Excellent comments from Boslow and NoNukesPlease.

What kind of parent says of her/his child, as Moat's mother apparently did, that 'you'd be better off dead'? And what effect on Moat himself who appeared to be following media-coverage?

Love is key to our emotional and mental health. The poisonous Daily Mail eulogises 'the family' while deliberately ignoring the evidence of the harm that emotionally undeveloped parents of whatever social class have on their children.

We need to find new ways of emotionally nurturing our young.

We're all born innocent and none of us choose who we initially become. We're conditioned. If there was greater awareness of how human beings develop and grow we'd all be healthier and happier. Unfortunately, the education and society we live in encourages us instead to chase illusions of fame and fortune.

As Peck wrote: "Life is difficult." Our roots shape us, and although what some call our Soul and others our Self calls us endlessly to health, the journey is long and we often lack the map of the territory and the support that a family, a spiritual guide or psychotherapist can provide.

Someone once was said to have said:

"Let him without guilt cast the first stone."

My hands are empty.

Blaming individual human beings for the way they are is pretty stupid. It's not 'PC' to blame the police, but actually I blame them more than I blame Raoul. Surely the vendetta wouldn't have happened if he hadn't felt wronged by the police service and his crap family (his mother should be thoroughly ashamed, but of course I doubt she is).

Police from my experience love to wind stuff up, show their power over mere mortals, and they get away with literally murder - the same charges against Raoul. One guy feels so helpless against it all that he loses his humanity - that's very very sad.

It's called empathy - some of you should try it sometime.

Public's reaction smacks of Bonnie and Clyde syndrome. Nothing more nothing less.

Good to see some Guardian readers believe it's not excusable to attack members of a group in society because of what different members of the same group did on another occasion.

What next, all social security staff or traffic wardens are fair game because one of them stopped your giro and another 'smiled' when he gave you a ticket?

Tussyisme

Mother is often right! Good on her. Its so nauseating hearing mothers go… oh he’s not guilty etc.

Someone else Now that it's emerging that Moat recognised his own mental instability and tried repeatedly to get help........

Yes abusers often try to suborn those who are interfering with their ability to abuse... it ME that's got problems........ And once the criminal charges are dropped its back to the abuse.

Ill people cannot systematically abuse, it takes skill, self possession and thought to do that. Managing to (as I have read) to rape, abuse and get off 12 times demands all of these things.. We recognise people as mentally ill.... when they cannot protect THEMSELVES. .....

He killed himself in the end... that is his circs was sane and logical.

eatyourcrusts

Hmm, funnily enough, when you're mentally ill they often don't.

If he was truely mentally ill, he would not have had the mental capacity to excuse some rejection and not others, he would have had hatred for anyone who had ever caused him personal upset.

To me, he initially tried to fake mental illness as an excuse to hope for a lighter sentence.

All that Roaul Moat has done is open the first gate in this type of incedent. A strong over haul in the ongoing stigma towards mental health highlighted. I say! the first gate has been openned as the compression of the mind in that state is so over whelming the release has to come from some where. With the added compression the Government has put on those suffering in that way by the latest budget is rediculous. No wonder Cameron wanted Facebook closed down. How can any one suffering in that way hold down any type of regimental work ie. 9-5 or even registered part time even. It's hard enough battle every minute of every day battling with those thoughts etc that never give peace. But to a degree there is a sense of control. But add pressures and add pressures then that control is lost and unpredictability comes about, and thus proven in this case with Raoul Moat. Even the mother that lost her son recognised this fact by her comments that she blamed his ex for making those comments in the first place stating that she is now seeing a police man. Facebook done right to keep that page open, disgusting as some comments that have been made. It makes for a good study and open mindedness in bringing a form of understanding. Thats democracy for you.

The police do, do a great job and have saved many life's which go unreported in many cases they are at the front line when one's suffering mental health is at braking point. Many are non judgmental in carrying out their jobs whilst dealing with that illness. If the teaser had been fired at that presise fatal moment then one with common sense would realise that it had been done as to the seriousness of the moment. 6hrs of a stand off the police officers in question would have gotten to know the phycology of Moat and the threat he possed towards himself. Its not in my own belief that he possed further threat of harm towards public or police as the spontanous acts that he had went through had probably departed at that time.

In recent times across the media it had also been reported that the age grouping of Raoul Moat, there is a high level of lack of support through the Mental Health services, Is it to no suprise that his plea's for help were ignored.

I don't have a problem sympathising with a murderer. On the contrary, I think it's probably quite important to do so. Murderers, psychopaths, abusers, terrorists etc. are all humans with redeeming qualities as well as their less redeeming ones. Probably all have reasons why they have fallen into certain behaviour patterns, related to upbringing/treatment/psychology and it is important to recognize that all of us have the potential to become just like them. The 'How can you feel empathy for a murderous thug?' mentality puts something of a barrier between us and them, which is a mere fabrication and doesn't help us to understand them or ourselves. Equally, labelling them as heroes or legends is unhelpful and just glamourises the whole thing. These were the extreme actions of a very troubled individual, handled by an equally human police force, who must have struggled (as any of us would) to keep their emotions under wrap in difficult circumstances.

Sympathy for a murderer is fine, so long as it isn't warped into hero worship. Extend that and you see that every single person involved deserves our sympathies - the killer, the victims, the public, the police ... even the media. Sympathy doesn't attach us to those we feel pity for and doesn't mean we'll make the same choices. In fact that's part of my point - if you understand a little better how an anguished mind behaves, you might stand a better chance of recognising it in yourself and seeking help. More than that, you might stand a better chance of helping someone else.