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Diabetes drug 'victory' is really an ugly story about incompetence

Rosiglitazone has been a magnet for disappointing behaviour since it was first marketed in 1999

This week the US Food and Drug Administration voted not to ban GlaxoSmithKline's diabetes drug rosiglitazone (brand name Avandia). Their vote has been reported as a victory for the company. I don't think so: this saga tells an ugly story about our collective medical incompetence.

Rosiglitazone was first marketed in 1999. From the outset it was a magnet for disappointing behaviour. That first year Dr John Buse discussed an increased risk of heart problems at a pair of academic meetings. He was silenced. GSK made direct contact, then moved on to his head of department. Buse felt pressured to sign various legal documents and after wading through documents for several months, in 2007 the US Senate committee on finance released a report describing the treatment of Dr Buse as "intimidation".

In 2003, the Uppsala drug monitoring group of the World Health Organisation contacted GSK about an unusually large number of reports associating rosiglitazone with heart problems. GSK conducted two internal meta-analyses of their data in 2005 and 2006. These showed the risk was real, but although both GSK and the FDA had these results, neither made any public statement, and they were not published until 2008.

Why then? In 2004 GSK were caught ‑ famously - hiding data showing side effects of the antidepressant paroxetine in children: a court settlement required them to post all clinical trial results voluntarily on a public website.

Using this data source, cardiologist Prof Steve Nissen and colleagues published a landmark meta-analysis in 2007 showing a 43% increase in the risk of heart attack on rosiglitazone. People with diabetes are already at increased risk of heart problems.

The FDA found a similar risk in their own calculations, but voted in 2007 to keep the drug on the market. This is not insane: diabetes is tricky, 300 million people have it worldwide, a great many die from it, and rosiglitazone is unusually good at controlling blood sugar. Lots of dangerous drugs are kept on the market and then used less frequently, in extreme circumstances.

A consensus algorithm from the American Diabetes Association and the European Association for the Study of Diabetes, meanwhile, unanimously recommended against rosiglitazone. Although annual sales for rosiglitazone fell, they still remained over $1bn (£650m). Concerns continued to mount. So did the bad behaviour. In 2007, Nissen caught GSK out discussing a copy of his unpublished paper, which they had obtained improperly.

Then on 28 June this year Nissen published an updated meta-analysis of 56 trials in over 35,000 patients. Again it found an increased risk of heart problems. GSK's response to all this has been like the responses you get from homeopaths. There are seven trials since 2007, they said, showing no excess risk: fine, except there are 56 which collectively do show an excess risk. There is this other meta-analysis, they said, which looked at 164 trials: fine, except it's published in a fairly obscure journal, and it looked at trials lasting more than four weeks, when the others set the bar at trials over 24 weeks, because a heart risk takes time to develop. In any case, this other meta-analysis is not brilliant for GSK's case, since it points out that the company denied access to data from six trials which we know to have taken place. There is no excuse for companies withholding data from academics and doctors. But most revealingare the deep-rooted flaws this story exposes in our rather ad hoc systems for gathering, analysing, and disseminating evidence on risks and benefits of treatments.

This drug has been on the market since 1999, and it has seen billions of dollars of sales every year. There has been plenty of real patient experience of this treatment, but we have failed to capture it for analysis. Most of the trials included in these meta-analyses were not specifically designed to look at heart problems, and so the data on these is unpredictably inaccurate.

In an ideal world, for every patient, wherever possible, we could be gathering anonymised outcome data and comparing this against medication history. In an ideal world, wherever there is genuine uncertainty about which treatment is best, a patient would be randomised to one treatment, and their progress monitored. In an ideal world, these notions would be so embedded in our notion of what healthcare looks like that no patient would be bothered by it.

This isn't fanciful, or difficult, or disproportionately expensive. Instead we have a hotchpotch of incomplete monitoring systems and unforgivable secrecy.


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  • muscleguy muscleguy

    17 Jul 2010, 8:56AM

    Considering we know the proteins that are the targets of rosiglitazone, PPAR alpha and gamma, largely. And considering that they are widely distributed and active in the body, doing a variety of things, it would be astonishing if a drug that targeted them did not have side effects. For the record the PPARs are transcription factors, proteins that bind to dna and switch other genes on and off.

    But as you say Ben, diabetes is a problematic condition and managing it is a balancing act, and rosiglitazone is very good at regulating blood sugar. It's a risk balancing act.

    But we live in a risk averse, litigious age. That is not to whitewash GSK though, their behaviour is beyond reprehensible.

  • arghbee arghbee

    17 Jul 2010, 9:00AM

    All very true. And what makes it worse is big pharma has no shame. Read the trade journals and you would think the low esteem in which drug companies are held is the fault of biased media reporting. There should be huge penalties for this type of thing. Whenever a drug company can be proven to have endangered patients by withholding negative data, it should be fined to the extent of every penny it has ever made from the drug concerned, and the executive(s) responsible should do time.

  • Dogstarscribe Dogstarscribe

    17 Jul 2010, 9:30AM

    All that outcome data Ben. Where would you store it? A big database? That wouldn't go down well with some on here. Even anonymized data on all treatments would be potentially recognizable.

    But I actually agree with you that we should have that degree of data on outcomes. I just think it's on the margin of that area where the greater good means the anti data libertarians need to be challenged.

  • artfarmer artfarmer

    17 Jul 2010, 9:54AM

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  • CliffordGMiller CliffordGMiller

    17 Jul 2010, 9:59AM

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  • wtfgg wtfgg

    17 Jul 2010, 10:09AM

    Unforgivable secrecy. GSK specialises in profits made on unforgivable secrecy. Glaxo Smith Kline. They've built a whole empire on marketing shady drugs and unnecessarily overpricing others.

  • Agent3244 Agent3244

    17 Jul 2010, 10:53AM

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  • chunkylimey chunkylimey

    17 Jul 2010, 10:59AM

    Just a theory.

    Would allowing a longer patent for companies stop them from being so secretive and worried about their results? They currently get neurotic about results due to the short period of time they have for return on their investment? 10 years 15 years?

    Obviously the negative of this would be that it would mean the company would have too much control and it would slow the release of generics. To counter this they have to release it under license after 5 years (hypothetical number) and only be allowed to charge a 10% profit margin (in effect they could undercut and produce the cheaper original drug - but also it would drive them down because the costs would be calculated etc).

    Currently the reason the Pharmaceutical industry acts this way is not just because of the rampant megalomania (though that IS a factor) but also because the drive to profit encourages them to play dirty to maintain profits.

    Could we prescribe some more carrot and a little less stick to get them to do the right thing? Just a theory.

  • rememberbhopal rememberbhopal

    17 Jul 2010, 11:20AM

    Is the problem that the stock market punishes industry for "bad news"?

    The stock market buys and sells shares in a fraction of a second so industry must be understandably wary of publishing "bad news" and keen to report "good behavoiur". This makes perfect sense from industry's point of view.

    Wyeth’s share price halved when results of the Women’s Health Initiative was published, that indicated that HRT might not be as good as had been thought.

    The pharmaceutical industry is damned if it does publish, damned if it doesn't.

    In order to protect public health, if stock market behaviour controls pharmaceutical industry behaviour, do we need to control stock market behaviour and remove the incentive to quickly buy and sell shares for short-term gain but insist that for the pharmaceutical and bio-tech and genome industries, shareholders must hold the shares for a minimum period of five years?

    We have to look at what is driving the behaviour and cure the cause of the problem, not the symptom.

  • Gladiatrix Gladiatrix

    17 Jul 2010, 11:46AM

    Dr Buse should have gone straight to his local police station and pressed charges against GSK for threatening behaviour, and sued his university for breaching its duty of care to him.

  • CliffordGMiller CliffordGMiller

    17 Jul 2010, 11:52AM

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  • Licentialiquendi Licentialiquendi

    17 Jul 2010, 12:04PM

    All very well and good and the usual standard of analysis and
    presentation, but presumably some of those who take rosiglitazone do find it beneficial. So what is / are the alternative/s? After all there are no drugs which are completely risk free and given the warnings that now accompany all medicinal products, if you took notice of these you'd never take anything.

    You say:

    "Using this data source, cardiologist Prof Steve Nissen and colleagues published a landmark meta-analysis in 2007 showing a 43% increase in the risk of heart attack on rosiglitazone. People with diabetes are already at increased risk of heart problems."

    But you don't say what the actual increase is for those who might suffer let's say, a fatal heart attack. And as far as I remember, you devote an entire chapter in your book about this particular misuse of statistics.

  • ManchePaul ManchePaul

    17 Jul 2010, 12:30PM

    There is a large problem with all these statistics about adverse effects, and that is the fact that those that are not catastrophic are severely under-recorded. Patients just stop taking the drugs without telling their doctors, doctors regard individual patients as exceptions and don't tell anyone or don't associate the problem with the drug (it's your age). If someone dies or is disabled, that shows up. Someone whose quality of life is badly diminished, or who becomes ill from other causes because they are made more prone to other problems, don't get counted.

    How many doctors regularly use the yellow card system to report drug side effects? How many people are aware that they themselves can report - anonymously if they like - side effect directly through the system. Just go to here http://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/

    Drug companies will not tell the truth about all the effects, such as half of all people on statins have adverse effects to one degree or another. And see the Jupiter study hysterically overpositive reaction to trivial effects, and see this re-examination. And see the declarations of interests....

  • Minkso Minkso

    17 Jul 2010, 1:13PM

    I suppose the main issues are whether the immediate or long-term side-effects outway the benefits and requirement for a drug. And whether the drug companies pay enough attention to side-effects or report them properly, with interactions. And also the common approach in modern medicine does not account for accumulation enough.

    Not sure if you can still get more information back about the drug from the MHRA if you supply a yellow card through a GP. Their email is pharmacovigilance@mhra.gsi.gov.uk !!
    Did not know big-pharma share-holders could be so 'right-on' !
    Nice,
    I suppose.

  • Duelist Duelist

    17 Jul 2010, 1:17PM

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  • rememberbhopal rememberbhopal

    17 Jul 2010, 2:41PM

    Minkso

    You wrote: "... whether the drug companies pay enough attention to side-effects or report them properly, with interactions"

    Studies in the journal Circulation (see third paper of four) reported that:

    1. clinical trials test drugs used on their own, not in combination with other drugs, although in real life most interventions are used in untested combinations with other drugs;

    2. commercial organisations do not carry out regular formalised studies of the long-term effects of a drug after it has been released on the market;

    3. interventions hit many “unintended targets” in the body as well as the “intended therapeutic target” but there are no monitoring programmes for the effect on "unintended targets".

    Lessons Learned From Recent Cardiovascular Clinical Trials:

    Part I: DeMets and Califf 106 (7): 880 – Circulation http://www.circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/106/6/746

    Part II 106 (6): 746 – Circulation
    http://www.circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/106/7/880

    Principles From Clinical Trials Relevant to Clinical Practice:

    Part I -- Califf and DeMets 106 (8): 1015 – Circulation http://www.circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/106/8/1015

    Part II -- Califf and DeMets 106 (9): 1172 – Circulation http://www.circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/106/9/1172

    In: "A collection of misleading surrogate end points" (April 2009.
    URL: http://www.healthyskepticism.org/global/news/int/hsin2009-04/ ), Staffan Svensson et al said that improving a symptom is not the same as curing the cause but there is a trend to market improvement of a measurable symptom as “successful treatment” e.g. a drug improves an ECG reading but then the patient drops dead because the underlying illness was not cured, only the symptom

    It must be very annoying for doctors because they see what happens in practice but the systems for feeding back are not as rigorous as they need to be.

    There needs to be a union or a tribunal for those working in the pharmaceutical industry, so that if they are unhappy with what they are being asked to do, by e.g. marketing departments, they can appeal and go to an external body.

    Scientists need a chartered scientist status - like a chartered engineer.

    Nobody in industryt takes the scientists on the factory floor seriously. They only listen to accountants. And look what accountants have done to the banking industry.

  • JedFanshaw JedFanshaw

    17 Jul 2010, 3:29PM

    rememberbhopal
    Scientists need a chartered scientist status - like a chartered engineer.

    This already exists for chemists - CChem - from the Royal Society of Chemistry

    Nobody in industry takes the scientists on the factory floor seriously.

    Oh yes they do! Some bright spark wanted to put a 3 tonnes reactor in the middles of the factory where I worked. During the process cycle there was a large amount of very toxic gas in the reactor. I sat down with the production director and explained to him why it was a silly idea. The bit he really liked was when I told him that it anyone was injured or died he'd be the one going to jail. Project cancelled.

  • rememberbhopal rememberbhopal

    17 Jul 2010, 3:58PM

    Jed Fanshaw

    That is very good to hear.

    But some scientists are quite conservative and sometimes not very assertive .

    For example, with the Shuttle - management did not take the recommendations of engineers seriously becuase they needed to hit a target.

    Management prioritised PR above feedback from nature.

    There is such a massive lesson to be learnt from that.

    Could assertiveness training be included as part of graduate training for scientists who are going to work in industry?

    If patients were responsible for their own clinical trial data, and could log on and check it, and verify it for accuracy, that might help in accurately collecting trial data and help to ensure against observer bias in data gathering.

  • JohnDStone JohnDStone

    17 Jul 2010, 4:22PM

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  • Duelist Duelist

    17 Jul 2010, 6:27PM

    Again it found an increased risk of heart problems. GSK's response to all this has been like the responses you get from homeopaths.

    Since when has homeopathy been accused of being liable to cause an increased risk of heart problems? This sort of unnecessary sniping does you no credit, Dr Goldacre.

  • Duelist Duelist

    17 Jul 2010, 6:49PM

    ... in 2007 the US Senate committee on finance released a report describing the treatment of Dr Buse as "intimidation".

    Of course, Dr Goldacre thinks such intimidating behaviour is "fun".

    Last year Dr Goldacre was having a lot of "fun" over the seek out and destroy tactics deployed by Merck against fellow doctors,

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/09/bad-science-medical-journals-companies

    The first fun thing to emerge in the Australian case is email documentation showing staff at Merck made a "hit list" of doctors who were critical of the company, or of the drug. This list contained words such as "neutralise", "neutralised" and "discredit" next to the names of various doctors. "We may need to seek them out and destroy them where they live," said one email, from a Merck employee. Staff are also alleged to have used other tactics, such as trying to interfere with academic appointments, and dropping hints about how funding to institutions might dry up."

    This sort of stuff really does you no credit, Dr Goldacre.

  • Duelist Duelist

    17 Jul 2010, 6:59PM

    I don't think so: this saga tells an ugly story about our collective medical incompetence.

    The GMC on behalf of the medical profession has just spent in excess of £6m in neutralising a doctor considered a threat to GSK business. Was this "fun"? Was this a price worth paying in the interests of big-Pharma? Eh, Dr Goldacre?

  • Bowrain Bowrain

    17 Jul 2010, 7:11PM

    Where does the blame lie?

    Cardiologists are not blameless.

    For example, It is a known fact that pioneering scientists believe that the heart and not the brain could hold the key, as far as answers go, to some of the more complex neurological conditions. On occasions electrodes have been implanted in the brains of Parkinson's and Tourette Syndrome sufferers to create more of a normality with circuitry problems.

    It does not take a medical expert to ascertain that the electrical impulse in the brain does not fire properly because of heart rhythm abnormalities. Heart rhythm abnormalities which could be attributed to cardiomyopathy.

    You will frequently find that Cardiologists are content to palm such cases off onto Psychiatrists.

    I have to say that some Cardiologists frequently use Psychiatrists as the whippings boys of the medical profession.

    Some Cardiologists can be very slippery.

  • BruceM BruceM

    17 Jul 2010, 7:14PM

    Duelist wrote

    ...Dr Goldacre thinks such intimidating behaviour is "fun".

    Last year Dr Goldacre was having a lot of "fun" over the seek out and destroy tactics deployed by Merck against fellow doctors...

    In reference to:

    ...court cases can be tremendously revealing.

    The first fun thing to emerge in the Australian case is email documentation showing staff at Merck made a "hit list" of doctors...

    I thnk you've misinterpreted that article there, Duelist. Goldacre isn't saying it's fun to make a hit list or intimidate doctors, he's saying it is fun (enjoyable, amusing) when the truth comes out in court cases because we can hold up wrongdoers as the bullies that they are and discredit them as they have tried to do unto others.

  • reggiedixon reggiedixon

    17 Jul 2010, 7:24PM

    @Duelist
    Ah - I seem to recognise that M.O. Are you the person who has gone under various pseudonyms such as "Maccabeanz" and "Cyberbat" ?

    Bruce M: I had a go, maybe you'll have more success, if its who I think it is then no chance.

  • Duelist Duelist

    17 Jul 2010, 7:44PM

    @BruceM

    I thnk you've misinterpreted that article there, Duelist. Goldacre isn't saying it's fun to make a hit list or intimidate doctors, he's saying it is fun (enjoyable, amusing) when the truth comes out in court cases because we can hold up wrongdoers as the bullies that they are and discredit them as they have tried to do unto others.

    Ho, ho, ha! Dr Goldacre is so misunderstood ... as always.

  • reggiedixon reggiedixon

    17 Jul 2010, 8:10PM

    Well what would you know? a few seconds with Google and my suspicions are confirmed, you can change your pseudonym but you can't hide your rather erm . . . . . "distinctive" method of debate.

    How is the convincing people that Smallpox and Polio being eradicated or nearly eradicated nothing to do with vaccination these days ?

  • sezme sezme

    17 Jul 2010, 8:45PM

    ManchePaul is so right about stats, and that adverse reactions don't get reported. I had an adverse reaction from a single dose of a new medicine my GP had decided was better than the one my previous GP prescribed. I was in my mid 20's at the time, fairly heatlhy apart from painful joints so I was prescribed NSAIDs
    I was very ill within 2 hours of taking one dose and I was terrified - I couldn't see straight or stand up. My husband took me back to the GP and he gave me my previous medication. I asked him to report the reaction but he didn't.
    3 months later the drug was withdrawn because elderly people were dying from it, but my GP hadn't reported my reaction

  • Bowrain Bowrain

    17 Jul 2010, 9:20PM

    Neurologists are not blameless either.

    Neurologists palmed my son's case off, into the psychiatric domain, before the completion of neurological investigations.

    I will elaborate - in the year 2000 an EEG showed brain rhythm abnormalities.
    The natural reaction of any patient is to ask the Neurologist for an explanation.

    I did ask on behalf of my son.

    No reply!

    Ten years on, it has become apparent that cardiac arrhythmia has caused the brain rhythm abnormality.

    Why didn't the GP report the fact that Neurologists were refusing to complete investigations?

    I am amazed to learn the drug treatment of choice for this condition.

  • juliuzbeezer juliuzbeezer

    18 Jul 2010, 12:09AM

    M. Goldacre skips merrily ahead to a future world in which every dose of every drug is databased for potential analysis by data-miners for unexpected adverse effects. There is a real problem with building such a database, and that is that if it were to be useful it would be widely accessed, and if it were to be widely accessed, patient confidentiality would inevitably be compromised.

    While the internet revolution is most impressive and almost 15 years old, not everyone is quite so hasty to abandon a principle which has stood the test of time for 2,500 years: that is to say, that what you tell the doctor in the privacy of the consultation room is privileged and under all normal circumstances will not be broadcast elsewhere.

    That said, he is not wrong that the drug companies have a long history of intimidation of individuals whose message was about to do serious things to their finances (see for example Adams S. Roche versus Adams. Jonathan Cape Ltd 1984)

    Currently inconvenient studies can be buried as "data on file" (i.e. never published outwith the company) or in obscure proprietary journals of little editorial repute and less circulation.

    Research ethics committees who approve research on human subjects should also be obliged to ensure that all such research is fully and freely published. This is currently beyond them, but the internet surely has a role in helping to close this circle.

  • Duelist Duelist

    18 Jul 2010, 7:33AM

    I wish the new government would fund Goldacre to provide a "to do" list for medical and health services.

    I suspect this has already been done. The NHS is about to be picked apart by a flock of vultures currently circling the thermals on high. Dr Goldacre is a squadron leader.

  • Bowrain Bowrain

    18 Jul 2010, 7:44AM

    Openness and honesty are crucial to moving forward, crucial in preventing the pharmaceutical companies from taking advantage of the vulnerable.

    So what is the point of removing the comments of those who presumably expose them?

    Why the secrecy? You are merely feeding the problem.

    In a debate, all relevant information must be put before individuals in order to hammer out a solution.

  • Bowrain Bowrain

    18 Jul 2010, 10:12AM

    Secrecy provides a breeding ground for lies and deceit.

    I want an answer to a simple question, from doctors. Perhaps Ben Goldacre can help

    Which drug, out of the following, would you think is best suited to cure my son's circuitry abnormality?

    a) antiarrythmic drug
    b) antidepressant drug
    c) antipsychotic drug
    d) cannabis
    e) opium

  • JohnDStone JohnDStone

    18 Jul 2010, 10:17AM

    As to the companies and their executives there should be a real issue of manslaughter or GBH attached to the marketing of known unsafe products - indeed, there is virtually no protection in the UK civil courts where the Legal Services Commission even failed to support the prosecution of Merck over Vioxx. At the moment getting it wrong only entails a commercial risk, and in the UK an almost infininitessimal one at that. Moreover, as we know in industry executives continue to get paid and more often than not get whacking bonusses even in the midst of disasters they have created.

  • exiledlondoner exiledlondoner

    18 Jul 2010, 10:48AM

    I don't think that Ben Goldacre is suggesting that drugs which have risks of serious side effects should be banned - in the end it will always be a trade-off between benefits and risks - he's suggesting that the risks need to be known.

    Many long-standing treatments have well known risks, which are factored in to any decision to prescribe them. The problem comes with newly developed drugs, where most of the evidence from clinical trials is in the hands of the maker.

    In reality there's a clear conflicft of interest for the drug producers - release of potentially negative data can reduce sales enormously, or even result in sales being banned. This can cost them billions. It's hardly surprising that in these circumstances, the beancounters trump the ethics, and negative research is hidden.

    The Pharmacutical industry is international, so regulation is difficult - on a national level, pretty much impossible. We certainly can't rely on US regulators, who are pretty much in the pockets of big pharma, so we really ought to be acting on a European level.

    Personally I would support a legal requirement for drug companies to release all relevent data prior to being allowed to sell commercially in the EU, and any subsequent data thereafter. This wouldn't slow down the process, or add significant costs, but it would require producers to declare that they are not sitting on any data that regulators need to be seeing.

    In this way, if problems do become apparent, either the producer didn't know about them, or if they did have the results of clinical trials that they hadn't released, they have committed a criminal offence. It would, to a large extent, allow full disclosure to protect drug companies from genuinely unforseen consequences, while raising the risks they run by hiding evidence.

  • Duelist Duelist

    18 Jul 2010, 11:07AM

    Dr Goldacre sneaked in this snarky comment about homeopaths,

    Again it found an increased risk of heart problems. GSK's response to all this has been like the responses you get from homeopaths.

    And then exiledlondoner said this,

    I don't think that Ben Goldacre is suggesting that drugs which have risks of serious side effects should be banned - in the end it will always be a trade-off between benefits and risks - he's suggesting that the risks need to be known.

    What are the side effect risks that the homeopaths are hiding? Dr Goldacre didn't say.

  • exiledlondoner exiledlondoner

    18 Jul 2010, 12:01PM

    Duelist,

    What are the side effect risks that the homeopaths are hiding? Dr Goldacre didn't say.

    Do you have some sort of comprehension problem, or are you trolling?

    Ben Goldacre didn't say that homeopaths are hiding any side effect risks. He likened their selective approach to quoting from clinical trials to that of the drug companies.

    Same technique, but for different purposes....

    ...not too complicated for you, is it?

  • Drivas Drivas

    18 Jul 2010, 12:07PM

    Dr Goldacre sneaked in this snarky comment about homeopaths,

    "Again it found an increased risk of heart problems. GSK's response to all this has been like the responses you get from homeopaths."

    What are the side effect risks that the homeopaths are hiding? Dr Goldacre didn't say.

    Goldacre is comparing the cherrypicking of data by GSK to that routinely carried out by advocates of homeopathy. If anything homeopaths tend to make up side-effects their sugarpills might have, because if it's got side effects, it must be doing something. I suspect you knew this, so your wilful ignorance - and selective quoting - makes you about as guilty of cherrypicking as GSK.

    Again it found an increased risk of heart problems. GSK's response to all this has been like the responses you get from homeopaths. There are seven trials since 2007, they said, showing no excess risk: fine, except there are 56 which collectively do show an excess risk.

  • reggiedixon reggiedixon

    18 Jul 2010, 12:39PM

    @exiledlondoner

    Do you have some sort of comprehension problem, or are you trolling?

    I've had several "debates" with the person currently calling themselves "Duelist" previously known among other pseudonyms as "Maccabeanz" and "Cybertiger" and you really are wasting your time. After a previous pointless bit of non sequiturs in response to what I said in another thread, someone kindly filled me in with the details of who he is and so on.

    He and other individuals currently in this thread seem to have a huge problem with Ben Goldacre's continuing efforts to unmask quackery. Hilarously they claim he is in the pay of their "Big Pharma" bogeyman. Articles like the above apparently confirm this idea.

  • rememberbhopal rememberbhopal

    18 Jul 2010, 12:55PM

    Well said, Exiledlondoner. It is all a bit of a mess. But the pharma industry is such a young industry - it is not at all surprising it is like this. Builders have had centuries to develop ways of doing things that are robust - and we have expected pharma to go from nought to sixty in about a hundred years. It is us being unrealistic.

    When one works for any team, one naturally wants that team to "win" because they are the source of your bread and butter and also they become like family.

    This means you are going to "screen out" what does not help your "team" - not from malevolent motives at all, but just because that is how our minds work.

    I am quite sure that is why industry finds it so difficult to indpendently assess its own research. Industry is not deceitful or trying to "pull the wool" - they just have a massive blind spot. It is just human nature.

    The publishers don't help. Massive international medical journal publishers sell software for manufacturers to monitor individual doctors' prescribing behaviour, as well as owning medical communications agencies who write up industrial research for a fee. One has to ask - is that wise - or is it creating an international monopoly.

    It is not fair to pick on one party as "the bad guy" - and take it out on them. That would not solve the problem that is one of "voluntary codes of practice" that are completely unmeasurable.

  • rememberbhopal rememberbhopal

    18 Jul 2010, 1:03PM

    The problem is also a behavioural one: we get the behaviour we reward.

    The stock market rewards pharma for only publishing good stories and punishes them through the share price for "bad" stories = the truth.

    So the stock market is driving this behaviour.

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