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World Cup 2010 live blog: 5 July

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Explore the Fans' Network: read what the world is saying

Spain's coach Vicente del Bosque attends a training session in Potchefstroom
Spain's coach Vicente del Bosque attends a training session in Potchefstroom. Photograph: Daniel Ochoa De Olza/AP

8.40am. Welcome to day ... 25(!) of guardian.co.uk's daily live World Cup blog, wherever you are in the world ....

Oh, and I should mention our usual disclaimer: we hope this blog will provide news, predictions, pontifications, colour from our team in South Africa, plus lots of pointing outwards; to your comments below the line, to the best things we've seen on the web and to various World Cup randomania.

I will be here from around 9am and the plan is to update the blog until around 5pm UK time.

And just to let you know that James Richardson and the World Cup Daily podcast team will be back later this evening with their thoughts ahead of the semi-finals.

9.18am: Hello and welcome to the final Monday morning of the World Cup and of this, our live World Cup blog. After the diverse excitements of the weekend we're briefly into what The Cure so wisely described as In Between Days (in their seminal, albeit slightly glum, musical critique of the logistically complex 1982 tournament format). Today the World Cup is stopped at the lights, eyeing the filter. But it's not in neutral. Instead it's already grinding at the clutch, edging forward annoyingly and preparing to tear away at the first glimpse of amber. Plenty to look forward to today and plenty to talk about. Which is lucky for me: I'm here all day.

9.22am: You can of course email me on barney.ronay@guardian.co.uk and share your views on the diverse topics of the day. These, I suppose, might include:
1. Whither Dunga? And is it all really his fault? I can see the reasons why they've got rid of him. Brazil simply have to win the 2014 World Cup, and they also have to perform in a definitively Brazilian way while doing it. Dunga was never really a part of this, but rather a reaction to the perceived decadence of the 2006 campaign. As for Dunga himself it seems like managing Brazil buys you enough goodwill for a shot at one big European job. Something in Serie A? Man City in six months? Portsmouth perhaps?
2. Why is it so inconsolably upsetting when the World Cup has these non-playing days? What, exactly, does the World Cup think it's doing?
3. Does Van Persie's fitness make Holland the most obvious finalist of the four teams, and can anyone out there really say they don't want to see a re-match of the still-heated 1974 final?
4. And as there seems to already be some talk about this: perhaps it might have seemed pre-tournament that England had more stellar, or highly paid, or experienced and successful Champions League players (some use the phrase "world class" here) than Germany. But football is a fluid game. Careers rise and fall. Germany and England intersected during their last 16 match. after which Germany set off up the hill, and England began their freewheel down it. A year from now this picture will be even clearer. Is that right? Or is it all simply a form blip and a management/fitness/idiotic internecine fallings-out issue?

9.40am: And on another topic - the is-it-a-good-World Cup issue - I'm with Gloop's comment below: "Before the world cup started I heard a lot of folk saying it was like the night before Christmas as a kid. Does anyone else feel like it's about 6pm Christmas day as a kid now?" I think it has been, and still is, really exciting, even taking in some of the dour and cagey early fixtures. We have had a sense of rhythm and building momentum. There have been surprises and injustices. And still no one really knows who's going to win. It's been great.

9.52am: Harry Redknapp on Sky just now (live from the golf course): "I'm gutted. I genuinely believed this was our moment to win the World Cup." Mmmm. Also on J Cole: "Joe's a great player, I'd love to have Joe." Plus he also fancies a slice of Diego Forlan, but "'e might be out of our league".

9.55am: Is Miroslav Klose the player you would have hand-picked to eclipse Ronaldo's scoring record? He says: ""I spoke with Ronaldo after the [2002] final. At the time I would not have dreamed of ever coming this close to him, needing two more goals to surpass him. I hope he's not too worried." I should imagine he is. Worried about how many packets of cheesy poofs he can successfully cram into his mouth without having to leave his Ribena-filled jacuzzi. But really. Klose. All-time top scorer. Is it unfair to disparage the hat-trick against Saudi Arabia, the very slight sense of a flat-track group stage bully?

10.01am: And Alvaro Reynolds has done a number on Carlos Tevez who, he suggests, might have learnt a lot from his time in England: "Being in denial after conceding four against Germany is all the rage this summer. Carlos Tevez, 4 July: 'Are you stupid? We have some of the top players in the world. Germany and Holland don't have top players, but they won their games and made it as a team.' Michael Owen, 28 June: 'There is no one in the world who can convince me that the German players are better than ours.' " Really Michael? Not even Thomas Mueller?

10.10am: Ramya Mohan has this: "Paul the Psychic Octopus has predicted a Spain win over Germany! As a long-time fan of ze Germans [note: The Guardian does not necessarily endorse this "ze"], I hope that little sucker is mistaken. Not to mention the Spanish just wont do justice against the Dutch in the finals." Not sure what that last bit means exactly. Presumably that Holland will somehow "shut down" the Spanish. But... Really?

10.22am: Irrelevant but still strangely persistent octopus news. Apparently there is a doctored "unofficial" prediction out there. Really. The Germany v Spain prediction hasn't happened yet and this has been doctored via Photoshop. So there you go. It has, in fact, come to this.

10.30am: Hmmm. I wonder what Fernando Torres is thinking this morning.
On Germany: "They will try to win, they will try to attack and so we can have more space to exploit." Like the sound of that.
On David villa: "It has been his World Cup." Has it? Really? Already?
On staying at Liverpool: "For now, my future is the World Cup and we still have a very important week ahead. I am sure we will talk soon." Uh oh.

10.32am: Ivor Leonard has some haert-warming tidings: "I've got to work today to be met by an excited colleague who told me that England had won the WC yesterday.
I was a little confused as I know what really happened in the real world. It transpires that his 7 year old son's school team played in a World Cup competition in Hobart, Tasmania yesterday and represented England. They beat Argentina in a penalty shootout (no goalkeeper!) in the Quarter Final before going on to beat Brazil 5-1 in the final." Ah yes, kids. They'll learn. Oh yes, they'll learn.

10.34am: Lynx writes: "HOOOOORAAAYYYY!!!! *Does the dance*" Indeed. And Liam Pennington is taking the Christmas Day ball and running with it: "Following Gloop's comment, I feel like it's similar to half-way through Boxing Day. You're still playing with all the best presents and having a great time, but it's not quite the high of yesterday, while the mind can't shake off remembering that the proper working week starts tomorrow. This has been a confusing, mixed-up, unpredictable World Cup, with everything from plucky North Korea holding their own (for a bit) through to the battering of Argentina by Germany (almost for the entire game) still to settle in the mind. When the history of South Africa is written, it'll be remembered as the most distinctive and open competition since Italia '90." Preferred 94 myself but I know what you mean.

10.40am: Post World Cup divvying up. Fabio Cannavaro is, like, really excited about the "new chapter" in his career playing with Al Ahli in the UAE. ""I accepted Al Ahli's offer mainly because it was the best offer for me and my family," he has said, before adding a little less convincingly, "I have followed the UAE League and I saw Al Ahli in the AFC Champions League." He must have a really comprehensive satellite TV package.

10.50am: If you like very happy Uruguayan men singing with joyous and perhaps drunken abandon, you'll love this. More Diego Forlan home videos.

10.54am: Also, from the very witty and more-ish kickette.com, this is kind of heartwarming

10.58am: Meanwhile Manuel Iglesias beleives Spain will win this World Cup in spite of their very nice coach with the dad-ish moustache: "Why change something when it is clear that it works? We won Euro 2008 playing great football, we played with one defensive midfielder (Senna) one playmaker (Xavi Hernandez), three attacking midfielders (Iniesta, Silva and Villa on the left) and one fordward (Torres). With this system we scored lots of goals and conceded very few. However, Del Bosque didn't like it and removed one of the attacking midfielders to put an extra defensive midfielder (Busquets). The result is a team that struggles to score and that is more unsecure defensively. If we win this World Cup it will be thanks to the determination and skills of the players and in spite of a very unwise and stubborn coach." Gah. To have Spain's problems, eh?

11.04am: Brian Cloughley isn't afraid to ask the big questions :"Any suggestions for the team of the tournament so far? Here's my fairly predictable effort to kick things off: Stekelenburg, Maicon, Friedrich, Lucio, Coentrao, Van Bommel, Schweinsteiger, Ozil, Forlan, Villa, Gyan." Did Vincent Enyeama really blow so badly it with his mild gaffe against Greece? You could argue his performance against Argentina was the best of the tournament.

11.11am: Here's a http://www.101greatgoals.com/video-maradona-the-argentina-squad-welcomed-home-as-heroes/58618/of Argentina's joyous homecoming after their exit from the World Cup (with thanks to www.101greatgoals.com). Look at all those flags. The happy people. Bit of a contrast with England - after their own shellacking by Germany - sliding in through the back door in a fleet of shame-faced bullet-proof BMW's.

11.25am: Not World Cup, but Roy Hodgson-related, who is BBC-related and Fernando Torres-related and generally globe-trotting international football-related: Lee Clark is "surprised" to be linked with the Fulham job: ""Most of the time I don't comment on speculation, but there has been absolutely no contact from Fulham and I don't want people to become unsettled." I already feel better.

11.28am: And check this out, ijf you have half an hour, from Zeno Sidon (warning: very long and does contain Suarez revisionism; right about ITV though): "Reasons to be happy Uruguay beat Ghana (despite media coverage to the contrary):
1. They play nice fluid football when attacking, but defend as a team (without egos)
2. Forlan is up there for player of the tournament (and Suarez, Peirera and Lugano have been pretty good too)
3. ITV decided I should be supporting Ghana. ITV will never decide anything for me.
4. ITV then refused to show or acknowledge any Uruguay chances, any Uruguay shots apart from the goal, or the fact that Uruguay could (and probably should) have had a penalty in the second half.
5. Uruguay are the underdogs
6. It wasn't even a freekick for Ghana in the first place - before leading to that incident
7. It is not cheating, unless every foul is also cheating (if you take out the last man and get sent off, no one calls you a cheat, no one even called Harry Kewell a cheat when he did the same thing in a less important match) - and it's definitely not evil.
8. You would expect your team mate or the team you support to do exactly that
9. Suarez was punished, will miss the semi and Ghana had a pen. Fair is fair, stop banging on about it - he is not a villain (we'd have loved it if that was England and an England player - and we don't give a toss about England players diving)
10. ITV seems to be trying to turn Desailly into some sort of comedy figure, I feel like the constant replays of his reactions are pushing it a little now, further turning me against them (and their chosen morally superior team 'Ghana')
11. If Desailly loves Ghana so much he should have played for them (I do like him though)"
12. Kevin Prince 'born in Berlin' Boateng was Ghana's best player - I don't normally have a problem with players changing nationality etc, but for some reason in this case I do, maybe it's because he "played 41 times for the German Under-15, Under-16, Under-19 and Under-21 national teams" and "Boateng was offered the chance to play for
Ghana in the 2006 FIFA World Cup, but declined. The Hertha BSC manager, Dieter Hoeneß, praised Boateng for turning down Ghana and opting to play for Germany". Maybe it's because his brother plays for Germany, and so would he - until he realised he wasn't good enough. . .he's hardly done it on the principle of retaining his connection to Ghana.
Now thats off my chest I can get on with life . . . "

11.37am: Scott W has a few bons mots on where we stand: "Here's a look at some stats and sentiments that were commonly aired before the tournament began, and how they measure up to the state of play: * No European team has ever won the World Cup outside the continent. Uruguay are the last, best hope for this stat's survival.
* The last time a final was played between two teams who had yet to win the trophy was 1978, when Argentina played Holland. Given that stat, a Uruguay/Germany final looks historically more likely than a Spain/Holland encounter - which would be a real break.
* The best side rarely wins the World Cup" (i.e., Portugal '66, Holland '74 and '78, Brazil '82, Yugoslavia '90, Romania '94, etc. etc.) Bad news for Germany 2010?."
I disagree with that last one. I would say in the history of the World Cup the tournament has always been won by the team who eventually become world champions.

11.42am: On teams of the tournament, here's Lou Roper. "Here's my proposed team sheet for the Fifa World Cup (TM) XI for 2010 brought to you by Adidas, etc.: 1 R Green, 2 J Zuma, 3 P Evra (captain), 4 F Cannavaro, 5 F Melo, 6 J Terry, 7 S Blatter, 8 R Earle, 9 N Anelka, 10 D Maradona, 11 Kim Jong-Il. Manager: R Domenech." What is this? A dufus XI?

11.49am: Liban Saleh on the Suarez issue: "I didn't have a problem with Suarez' handball, I would have done the same thing. However, most people who indulge in that sort of rule breaking have the decency not to stand on the sidelines, celebrate a missed penalty and then allow themselves to be hoisted on their team mates shoulders and be treated like a hero." The celebrations on the touchline after the missed pen were a bit much. I would suggest a slightly different attitude to winning by any means in different parts of the world. Witness reaction in Argentina to the hand of god goal.

11.58am: Easy quiz question (with surprisingly emotive ramifications if discussions here are anything to go by). One of our four remaining teams is going to become the second nation to win a World Cup outside Europe and the Americas. Or is it the third? And who are those/that previous winner(s)?
Incidentally Paulo Sousa is now formally "in talks" to become Leicester manager. He loves The Championship.

12.04pm: Sky Sports' Nick Collins makes a good point: Uruguay have so far been cast in the role of "pantomime villains" at this World Cup. The hammer of the Africans/South American cheats. A little unfair on a small, over-achieving nation with some lovely players. Forlan, of course, is a very nice man too. UNICEF ambassador and all that.

12.10pm: Phil Alves in Jo'Burg is struggling with not so much World Cup fever, as World Cup 'flu: "My Monday bewilderment is caused, I think, partly by the two games last Friday (was at Soccer City...), and partly by Argentina's humiliation and my new-found appreciation for German football, but moslty because my regular lunch-time read of the main business daily here in South Africa has a preview of Saturday's Tri-Nations (rugby union) clash between the All Blacks and the Springboks in Auckland. Rugby? This World Cup is indeed coming to an end, and I am sad." And Lou Roper now has his serious hat on: "Since you didn't like my 'alternative' XI (which might play the 'Bavarian Babes' in a series of charity matches to promote 'The Power of Football' (Fifa trademark), how about this team: 1 I Casillas, 2 Maicon, 3 G van Bronckhorst, 4 C Puyol, 5 B Schweinsteiger, 6 P Mertesacker, 7 D Villa, 8 , 9 T Mueller, 10 W Sneijder, 11 D Forlan, Manager: O Tabarez." Casillas?

12.16pm: On the subject of going home, Ian Copestake fumes: "Being beaten by Germany 4-0 one thing, being driven away in BMWs is another altogether. Where no armour-plated (as standard) Maxis available?" I think it was the suits that got me. Take the suits off, I say. Just bin them. Why prolong the illusion? What were the suits saying anyway? We are organised, united and ideally kitted out for some kind of formal champions' reception? I'd have liked to have to seen john Terry stepping off the plane in a pair of ballet pumps, black knee socks, combat shorts a string vest and a hat made out of sausage-shaped balloons.

12.26pm: Daniel Tursk is keen to hand out some gongs. Maybe a little premature for this WC: the semi and final are where it all really happens with regard to this kind of thing. Not really a controversial view, but I can see it all being about Villa. Burt here's Tursk: "With World Cup about to reach it's culmination, I think it's quite fair to start speculating on who will get the best player of the year / Balon d'Or for year 2010. With Messi winning just one title and being quite a bit-part player in semi finals of the Champions League and quarter finals of the World Cup (not saying he flopped though, I think he played pretty well), the question is whose gonna be this year's best player. Frontrunners probably are:
Sneijder - treble at Inter, espescially fantastic in CL. In World Cup, maybe not as much in the picture as everyone expected and not as bright in Inter, but 4 goals and 2 assists clearly is an big impact.
Robben - double at Bayern, fantastic season all around. In World Cup, hasn't played much ofcourse, but in those 200 minutes or so he's had a huge impact too. One goal, hit the post for Huntelaar to score, good game against Brazil too.
Müller - double at Bayern, not a shining light for Bayern, but was good and found a perfect system for himself in the German NT. Amazing World Cup from him.
Schweinsteiger - double at Bayern, nice season, but much like Müller, amazing at the World Cup.
Villa - had his standard (which is pretty damn good ofcourse) season at Valencia and in World Cup he's sort of carried Spain through. No-one else has scored for them except Iniesta for one I believe.
Forlan - great season (2 goals in Europa League final), great World Cup. Becoming quite a star thanks to this World Cup."

12.29pm: And Geoff Saunders is getting it all off his chest :"I'd like to see EBLJT stepping off a plane in another country. Perhaps he could join Cannavaro in UAE (or wherever, I really couldn't care), and take his hilarious "sitting on the ground while the opposition speed toward his goal" routine with him. Anyone else notice the similarity between Man City's demolition of Chelsea and Germany's demolition of England? EBLJT sitting on his arse watching both games." Yes, except... Chelsea... went on to win the. You know.
And Terry - he was the one waving the trophy around at the end.

12.35pm: Some news just in. Cesc Fabregas will be fit to take up his place on the Spain bench for the semi-final. Carles Puyol who suffered "blurred vision" against Paraguay will also be ready, presumably after doctors diagnosed a simple case of having really long straggly matted hair that gets in your eyes when you try to run. Good news for Fabregas. Still a tiny chance he might actually get a decent run-out from here if Del Bosque decides to tinker, or if they go a goal down and no longer need the double-pivot midfield.

12.34pm: I'm off for a few minutes, but will leave you and the blog in the capable, warm, comforting and strangely sensual hands of Barry Glendenning for the next 20 minutes or so. Any major developments - you'll hear about them here first.

12.54pm: Not a major development, but an interesting column by Irish Times top dog Tom Humphries, on why there shouldn't be a place for video technology in football. With so many people saying there should, it's heartening to read the views of somebody who shares my view.

The general gist of it is that we should accept that these things - Lampard's disallowed goal, Thierry Henry's handball, a Carlos Tevez offside - happen and get over them. Players make mistakes all the time, so why shouldn't referees, as long as they're honest mistakes. "The beauty of sport is that you can't freeze it all and undo it," writes Tom and I couldn't agree more.

"Sport in general and football in particular are lovely simulcrum of real life," writes Tom. "And life isn't supposed to be about certainties: it can't be about certainties, not with the short journey that is death looming at the end and our necessary haziness about the destination. That is if death itself isn't the destination. And things are grey and shrouded even before that. It's the human condition. Imperfect."[BG]

1.10pm: John Ashdown has been busy this morning, beavering away on this blog about whether or not it's time for Fifa to introduce "penalty goals" (not dissimilar to rugby union's penalty tries) in order to ensure that Uruguayan strikers making illegal goal-line clearances with their hands get punishments to fit their crimes. Personally, I think it's a daft idea. What do you think? [BG]

1.21pm: Thanks Barry. I'm back. and so is Mike Cameron, who writes: "What's the latest with the Octopus? Sign him up for the next WC too, he's better than the rest of us combined so far!" As far as I'm concerned the sooner that octopus is combined with a light floury batter, a pan of hot oil and a few slices of lemon the better. It's an interesting point about predictions though. This has been an unusually hard one to call, which is surely a good thing. But that does it mean?

1.23pm: Although for me - and now I'm going to talk about myself because nothing else is happening - it has been quite strange. I am generally terrible at predicting things. So it is perhaps unsurprising that for this unpredictable World Cup I've been unusually accurate. The downside of this, oddly, is I've never before received anything like the email abuse I've got for making various (ultimately correct) predictions. Here are a few of these:
1. Pre-tournament I said England would not win the World Cup and that they didn't deserve to win it and were in various key ways a slightly embarrassing team (aggrieved email response: I'm a traitor/ full of "self-loathing")
2. I picked Holland as dark horses (I'm pretentious/living in the past)
3. I thought Argentina had one big stuff-up waiting to happen (I am racist/stupid)
Is it just that people care much more about the World Cup and therefore feel doubly infuriated by opinions on what might happen? Are these particularly infuriating notions to put forward? Or what? It has been unusual.

1.35pm: Back to the actual World Cup: Jogi Low says :""Spain remain the natural World Cup favourites. They not only have one Messi, but they have several Messis." Nicely put; if only Argentina had had one Messi. We're still waiting to see the best of Iniesta too. He's a lovely player. I was trying to describe him to someone here and my best effort was a mix of the best bits of Paul Scholes and Joe Cole. Is that overly flattering? The boy does, as they say, have the lot.

1.43pm: Meanwhile Guy Hornsby is talking about this - were we talking about this? - and has these views: "I applaud Tom Humphries for his viewpoint, for every advocate of replays or chips in footballs, there's also a misty-eyed throwback that still wants to talk about heinous errors decades later. But the truth is, no one really wants to see something as big as the world cup decided on such a mistake. I'm a massive rugby, cricket and tennis fan, and I was opposed to replays originally, but it's simple really - for something as important as a ball being touched down over the line in the World Cup final, an lbw in the final Ashes test, or a wrong call at match point at Wimbledon, you can't put it in the lap of the gods. We're not talking about instant replays for everything: goal line technology - and ONLY that - will remove the sort of mistake that could blight the game." And there you are. Some sound sense. But it won't happen.

1.52pm: Sky "sources" are saying Howard Webb will not get a semi [cue Carry On-style parping horn sound effect] but could yet referee the final, God help them.

1.53pm: And re: my own self-pitying rant on World Cup predictions, Scott W notes: "Who can say why people take the time to email abuse to sports journalists when they venture an opinion, you utter swine? If they didn't offer an opinion, they would probably get a volley of abuse anyway, for being bland, you terrible racist." Yes, yes. So true.

1.55pm: On prediction anger specifically and generally Geoffrey Saunders writes: "Regarding the predictions, in order 1) anyone who watches football with their eyes open would say the same 2) Not very dark horses, half my mates picked them too 3) with Maradona as coach it was very predictable. However my point is that actually most people do not watch football at all. they watch their club and their players, and they ignore or gloss over the game itself. If you sit and watch with a bunch of English fans you see it all the time. The level of self delusion brought on by Sky and their constant "Best League in the World" is staggering.I said before the WC that the Bundesliga was better and more entertaining than the Premier League. I was laughed at - by people who don't actually watch it incidentally."
1. Stop saying my predictions were obvious. This is the first time I've been right. I intend to milk it.
2. Is that right? Can otherwise intelligent people really be so confused by a little hype?

1.59pm: Meanwhile Mike Cameron has typed this in 0.43 of a second using his eight waggly suckered arms: "Save Our Octopus. We should get together and buy the blighter, we could clean up on the footie, the gees etc. Forget Paddy Power, we'd have Paul Power, the Octopus Oracle. We'd make a bomb and you want to eat the blighter? Are you daft, eh? oh......" We had a prediction fish here four years ago. It died.

2.06pm: David Wall splutters with a weary shake of the head: "Re: 1.55pm qu 2, you're really having to ask this? Isn't the fawning over the iphone 4, ipad, any new gadget, etc, evidence enough?" I work for The Guardian. If you don't have an iPhone you're considered (a) insane; (b) challenged in some vital way, like straggly-bearded men at bus stops who wear odd shoes and a folded newspaper hat; (c) a suitable target to have your head flushed down the bog by a few of the lads from the graphic design dept.

2.10pm: Is Guillem Balague really Spanish? Or did he just sort of start being a bit "Spanish" for a joke, or in a moment of expediency and then it sort of got more serious until he could no longer go back and now he's stuck with it? I've spoken to him and I'm still not sure. Either way, he thinks Torres won't be dropped for the semi.

2.16pm: On leagues Scott W quibbles: "Per Geoffrey Saunders' remark about the Bundesliga, may I add that the World Cup is *not* the benchmark for the quality of national leagues? The Eredivisie, La Liga, the Bundesliga and the Primera Division Uruguaya are not currently battling it out to be declared the 'best league in the world'. If you want to make out that Germany's triumphs thus far are also an advert for the quality of the Bundesliga, obviously, you're free to do so - but it's not a given. Is it?" But... Maybe they could claim to be leagues and club systems that produce the best players, most of whom then depart to play overseas aged 20-23.

2.30pm: And back on League Graeme Neill notes: "But Barney, according to this morning's quiz, only a handful of German players play outside of the Bundesliga. I'm not entirely sure what this means for the wider debate (which is fun to read btw) but interesting nonetheless." It means they pay good wages at Bayern Munich. As Lou Roper has already noticed: "In terms of 'leagues', is it not the case that most of the German squad actually play in the Bundesliga unlike their counterparts in various other countries? Also, did not the same league have a representative in last season's Champions [sic] League final? In order to curb this ridiculous situation, might a proposal be made to FIFA to substitute hype for football: this way, the most-publicized and self-aggrandizing league and national teams would always win (and shouldn't those with the loudest vuvuzelas always triumph over the meek, the dignified, and/or the circumspect?) and we wouldn't have to worry about such unpleasantries as offisides, 'cheating' Uruguayans 'depriving Africa', etc."

2.37pm: Oh. This is good. the linesman who missed Frank Lampard's "goal"m against Germany has been speaking to El Pais. "It was a very fast shot that I did not see properly, even though I was located in the right place," says Mauricio Espinosa, not really clearing that one up. "We didn't see a replay in the dressing room at half-time but you could sense what had happened. It was only when we saw the TV that we realised what happened.... You just have to accept it. Life goes on." As the England players no doubt remarked to one another as they skulked out of Bloemfontein.

2.40pm: Also Sepp Blatter has been gurgling into his executive megaphone about the wonderful success the host nation has made of the World Cup. "More than 500,000 fans will have come to South Africa and some are talking about the figure being even higher. The forecast from 'old Europe' was the fans wouldn't come - well here they are. I am a very happy president today and I hope I will be happy until the very end of this week." Old Europe. Isn't that a range of clothing produced by Marks and Spencer and featuring various styles of pleated chino?

2.44pm: Again Graeme Neill on wages: This is from the Mail last month. The figures are unbelievable. That means the Premier League is spending nearly almost double on wages than the Bundesliga: English top flight clubs spent in excess of £1.32billion on employee salaries – more than Italy's Serie A (£0.93bn), Spain's La Liga (£800m), the Bundesliga (£684m) and France's Lique 1 (£615m)." Only 18 clubs in the BL, but still. I suppose the difference comes firstly in the wild excesses of the top four clubs, and then in the sheer consistency, the fact even the bottom club are doing this. But does it really matter? Only, I suppose, in the ratio between wages paid and money ploughed back into developing talent. Which is about 1.32bn:0 at the moment.

2.47pm: NEWSFLASH: Jogi Low has announced he will wear his blue V-neck in tomorrow's semi. He says it's "lucky". Seriously. It's on Sky.

2.48pm: Paul Tooby has an appeal: "Please put me out of my misery on the 'maybe second' team to win the World Cup outside Europe and The Americas! I refer you to my entry below the line at 1.38pm, which is being studiously ignored. I'd be in bed by now but I've been waiting for the answer to show up for two hours now..."
It's England! Joined Europe in 1973. Before that the autonomous fountainhead of the British Empire.

2.51pm: And Alan Whyte approves: "Seeing Paddy power mentioned reminded me to write and compliment them on having a boss that gets stuck in on a day to day basis. He's always popping up on the Radio for a chat, unlike that William Hill or Bet Fred. They're always nowhere to be seen, probably on holiday." That advert with the blind footballers and the cat. It's not as good as it thinks it is, is it? Someone somewhere thought that idea was really funny. They were wrong.

2.53pm: Eamonn Maloney points out: "Oh look, you've gone and published the linesman's name, publicising it to those too incompetent to find it out for themselves, surely inversely the most dangerous group of people when it comes to his safety. Silly linesman-endangering sports journalist." I was going to make a similar remark, in the context of his "life must go on" comment, but I thought that might get me in trouble. But now I can say you did it.

3.04pm: This just in from the likable Gerard "Piquenbauer" Pique :"I don't know why they are so impressive. Maybe it is because they have a lot of new young players." He he. He's asking for it, isn't he? On the predictions point from a while back Alexander Davidson urges: "Everything that you and Barry said about EBALJT and his cronies turned out to be correct. I think the only people who reacted badly to that were myopic little englanders whose total lack of knowledge of anything outside of the EPL (premier league) is one of the scars afflicting the game in the UK. I hope EBALJT and $tevie G bugger off to the UAE so we don't have to look at their grizzled coutenances any more." Which is perhaps going a little too much the other way. But you can see passions (and not necessarily cold reasoning) run high.

3.14pm: Snurk. Snigger. You may have already seen this. It is very good. NB: requires sound or you won't get it. Love the Beckham bit.

3.16pm: This is also quite funny, by Mark Stephenson, although obviously the views are entirely his and I'm not calling anyone on ITV or the BBC a racist or a sickly and patronising post-imperialist apologist. "All this talk of racism - around 1pm - and Ghana - at about 9am - makes me wonder if anyone else found the ITV commentary rather patronising? It's almost as though Clive Tyldesley's remarks about open-hearted and welcoming Africans came across as a Brentian disguise to hope the country forgets his previous appeasement. Am I being overly-cryptic? I find Tyldesley's patter about the morally superior Ghana deserving our support as though they're a team of against the odds and heart-warming stories rather than well-numerated players mainly spread across Europe's top league. We all supported Ghana because we like something different to the European and South American hegemony as long as they pose no serious threat to it, admittedly patronising, but Clive made me feel they should win because they smile a lot. I really hope we can look back at the BBC bus going through townships, Gary Lineker's best 'humbled' face before introducing every such link, and Clive's commentary as embarrassing relics in years gone-by."

3.22pm: Ben Heywood has been sweeping back Craig Johnstone's dank curls, leaning in very close, and peering into the inner workings of his zany brain: "I heard Craig Johnston talk about the Jabulani on Talksport a few days ago arguing that the Jabulani was a disaster for football - as the inventor of the Predator boot and an expert on sports science I thought his opinion worth listening to. He states his case here, in an open letter to Sepp Blatter." Warning: he does go on a bit.

3.28pm: As Sarah Wilson has noted via email there is some talk Diego Maradona may have resigned, as reported by El Pais. Can't confirm or deny this as yet but will let you know as soon as there is anything firmer. This is a rumour at the moment.

3.30pm: Apparently Luis Suarez got a cheeky text from his Ajax team mate Maarten Stekelenburg: "I sent him a text message saying that he has been the best goalkeeper of the tournament," Stekelenburg has said. How they laughed in Ghana... Come on lads. Laugh. It's just a joke. Some people. And Jonathan Higham has penned a lengthy and persuasive argument about technology, edited for reasons of space: "For those against technology one of main reasons seems to be the old Football, like life, isn't "supposed to be about certainties" i.e. the football reflects real life debate. Technology has made us more accountable for our actions in life: speed cameras, advances in forensics, CCTV. So why, if football is reflective of real life, are footballers (and referees) not held more accountable? The goal line debate could easily be solved ice hockey style with a simple red or green light saying if the ball has crossed the line or not. The more important change will be the retrospective or real time punishment of cheating which so blights the sport and is always excused as "play acting" by players or "human error" if the referee misses someone cheating. Mistakes are human, cheating is human, but so is societies need for progress and to seek justice for injustices." Eh? Whassatt?

3.35pm: Ben Smith is no doubt right: "I agree to a certain extent that some of the coverage has been a touch patronising, but I think the reason many people wanted Ghana to succeed on Friday was that it helped to create an atmosphere of excitement, of something new and different. It's perhaps a bit lazy to accuse people who supported Ghana of some sort of apologetic guilt, I guarantee the coverage will be equally as myopic in 4 years time for every Brazil fixture."

3.36pm: And David Hopkins is coming on all Guardian, perhaps while actually in a yoga pose. "Could I humbly propose an alternative answer to the quiz question? There
are in fact three teams who've won the World Cup outside of Europe or the Americas - Brazil, plus Germany and the USA who, as of course we all knew without recourse to Wikipedia, have both won the women's tournament in China." Yes - and Australia won the World Cup in South Africa in 2003!

3.49pm: On Diego Maradona resigning it seems some South American websites are saying he has just told an Argentine TV station: "my cycle is finished".
Which either means (a) his washing now needs hanging out; (b) he's going to be a bit less moody for about three weeks or so; or (c) he's resigned. I'd go with (c) but you do never know.

3.54pm: But important to note there is still some scepticism about whether Maradona has actually resigned. It is simply some quotes at this stage. A story about a story, rumour about a rumour. In fact I kind of wish I hadn't mentioned it now. Still, nobody believes anything they read on here, do they?

3.58pm: Mark Stephenson would like to clarify: "I never accussed anyone of myopic guilt or being apologetic apart from Clive. I said the very opposite that his misguided attempts for home support came out as smacking of worry and fear about seeming racist and, therefore, patronised Africa and us. If disagreeing with Clive Tyldesley makes me militantly liberal we live in very strange times..."

4.00pm: According to the wires "Wives and girlfriends of the Holland squad spent the day touring Robben Island".
Is that the proper name for the small triangle of surviving hair at the front of his scalp?
Ha ha.
It's been a long day.

4.08pm: Nigeria have decided to play football after all. Goodluck Jonathan has rescinded his ban on international competition, with remarkably soon after coming up with it. Goodluck to him with all that. And George Thompson is talking balls: "The thing about the jabulani is that it exists because Fifa wants to bring out a 'special' World Cup ball so that it can market it ruthlessly for $150 while World Cup fever is high. That's all very understandable in the grubby world of corporate greed, but can't they just put a new sticker on an existing ball and let players play with one they're used to – meaning we don't have to endlessly watch long range shots sail out of the stadium. It's worth searching for the BBC's video of the top 10 long range goals of the 2006 WC on Youtube and comparing it to what we've seen in South Africa. Could Maxi Rodriguez have scored that extra-time screamer against Mexico with a Jabulani? Me thinks not."

4.18pm: George Weah has been having his say on big player droop: ""I think when they come to the tournaments they can be fatigued and have a lot of pressure on their shoulders. The other fact is that they are team players and it depends on how their team plays. It is now just about goals either, and the fact that Kaka didn't score or Messi didn't score doesn't mean they didn't play well - they both created goals for their team-mates." Er. George? What about Wayne? You didn't mention Wayne, George. Wayne also did all those things. George?

4.35pm: Ah dear. This is from yesterday's Sunday Mirror in case you missed it. Dismal stuff:

"Two-and-a-half hours before the opening clash with the USA – as Cole was preparing to play for his country – he was begging the blonde to send him "a real dirty" naked picture of herself.
Even after that dismal 1-1 draw, he was still thinking of sex as the team set out days later for their crunch Slovenia match – sending another text pleading with the model to send him another explicit ­picture.
The woman, who Cole started to text and send pictures of himself to after ­spotting her on a pal's Facebook page, said: "He was sending texts so close to games he must have been doing it before jumping on the team coach on his way to the matches.
"He would get frantic if the pictures wouldn't arrive in time for him to see them before kick-off. I think fans will be really shocked that this was how he ­prepared for games.
"If the way he prepared is ­anything to go by it's little wonder they played so badly – he ­clearly wasn't only focusing on football."
Cole sent the model, who he has never met, 139 ­messages over the tournament... urging her again and again to send him erotic photos and videos.


Best bit: "Cole sent the model, who he has never met, 139 ­messages". That's kind of weird even in this already weird behavioural context.

4.37pm: On Ghana and ITV James Adamson mediates: "I totally sympathise with people being nauseated by ITV's coverage of Ghana and not wanting to join a fake cheerleading fest but I ignored ITV, watched it in a crowded pub where we couldn't hear Tyldesley anyway and we all supported Ghana. I had some club loyalty to John Mensah anyway but the main feeling was that Ghana were the newcomers to the last eight and no disrespect to Uruguay who were great as well, sometimes teams just win you over. Ghana did this by playing good football and showing great courage and spirit and exemplified what playing for your country is supposed to be about. I hope the England squad was watching."

4.50pm: On James Adamson on Ghana Ben Smith writes: "Re: James Adamson. Exactly."

4.54pm: And on that bombshell it seems like a good moment to call a halt until tomorrow. Thanks for all your emails. I hope the World Cup has been sufficiently stoked and fanned and fluffed for you, even without the obvious advantage of some actual football going on. More of that tomorrow with our first semi-final, Germany v Spain. It promises to be extremely gripping and you can of course follow all the build up and the match itself here. That's all from me. Barney.


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  • Yuppie Yuppie

    5 Jul 2010, 8:58AM

    Anyone remember English fans saying that England have a better player in every position then Germany and that Germany do not have a world class player? LOL

    Worst of all was Shearer's "guarentee", at half time of the Slovenia Vs. Algeria game, that England would beat Algeria.

  • gecko411 gecko411

    5 Jul 2010, 9:00AM

    When FIFA looks at goal line technology, they might want to look at a 'penalty-goal', similar to a penalty in rugby. Ghana-Uruguay game highlights this.
    Still, Gyan should have scored.

  • Wolven Wolven

    5 Jul 2010, 9:02AM

    England may have a better player for each of those positions than Germany (I'm not saying we do) but that doesn't mean anything really.

    Football is a team sport. Germany have a fantastic team, we didn't.

    Fantasy football is all a bit of fun, but when pundits etc start saying stuff like that it really means nothing. Players need to train and fight together to build the team spirit. You can't just get the best strikers, midfielders, defenders together and expect that they work well.

    This World Cup proves this.

  • Gloop Gloop

    5 Jul 2010, 9:04AM

    I have to comment on Tevez's comments -

    We have some of the top players in the world. Germany and Holland don't have top players, but they won their games and made it as a team

    Really? I'm not sure Sneider, Robben, Schweinsteiger etc. would agree with that one.

  • Yuppie Yuppie

    5 Jul 2010, 9:09AM

    England may have a better player for each of those positions than Germany (I'm not saying we do) but that doesn't mean anything really.

    I agree with you about the Team game, and Germany's tactics at the World Cup have easily been the best so far (I am worried about their shape without Muller, though), which has allowed for a very fluid midfield.

    But, can you think of a single English player who would get into the German side on the basis of this World Cup? And take away this World Cup's form, then who? Cole and Rooney may be?

    Tevez

    We have some of the top players in the world. Germany and Holland don't have top players, but they won their games and made it as a team

    LOL. Argentina have nice strikers only, Holland and Germany's midfield are both >>>>>> Argentina's and Germany's defence is 1,000,000x stronger, as well as both Holland and Germany's keepers being > Argentina.

    For all of his hype, Di Maria spent far too much time trying to nutmeg people than play creative through balls. Wonder is the Argie press are questioning why there was no Riquelme, or whiff of a #10 in the squad, yet.

  • conanthebarbarian conanthebarbarian

    5 Jul 2010, 9:11AM

    Anyone remember English fans saying that England have a better player in every position then Germany and that Germany do not have a world class player? LOL

    Anyone remember people who say things without thinking about it just because some unreflected upon truth gives easy rise to the suggestion?

    The top statement is not 100% true but before the world cup most would have believed it and, in most cases, still have a perfectly good right to. The success of one team and failure of another says next to nothing about the individuals concerned apart from relating to a few isolated games. Judged as teams there is no comparison: Germany are better than England and they emphatically proved it. But this is much much more than simply about the individuals that made the respective teams up. No manager of a top European club will be taking Boateng over Ashley Cole, Friedrich or Mertesacker over Terry or Khedira, Schweinsteiger and Özil over Gerrard or Lampard. No one thinks Klose, Poldi or Müller are better than Rooney. Lahm is clearly better than Glen Johnson. Anyone is better than Heskey. A 4-1 does not prove that 11 individuals are better than 11 other individuals.

    Germany do not have a "world class player" if by that you mean a superstar who can command a 20-30 million pound fee. Not one. And I say good for them. Their reliance on "team" is their great strength and it will serve them well. I think they are the best team at this world cup by far. But this doesn't make them all superstars or individuals that the top clubs and managers will be rushing to get hold of. Follow their careers. See who is wanted, chased. See who the big money gets laid down for by the people paid to get success in the club game.

  • gecko411 gecko411

    5 Jul 2010, 9:15AM

    John Terry isn't world class. Just because he getas £170k/week doesn't make him world class. The players around him, Alex, Carvalho etc makes him look world class.

  • billysbar billysbar

    5 Jul 2010, 9:17AM

    For the statisticians amongst you, the Villa goal must be a record for the fastest time that a ball has hit the woodwork in open play i'd venture. 3 times in about 5 seconds, that's got to be a record hasn't it?

    I'm worried that i find that interesting, to be honest!

  • Yuppie Yuppie

    5 Jul 2010, 9:18AM

    No manager of a top European club will be taking Boateng over Ashley Cole, Friedrich or Mertesacker over Terry or Khedira, Schweinsteiger and Özil over Gerrard or Lampard

    Eh? Are you being serious?

    Schweinsteiger and Ozil are far superior to Gerrard and Lampard. If you watched more than Premiership highlights and the odd Bundesliga game, you would see this. And Mertersacker not as good as Terry? That is the utter rubbish sprouted out the likes of Shearer and Lineker.

    I would not disagree that as a team Germany are by far the best, but if you are trying to defend England because of that then you are severly deluded.

    They also play as a team because of great tactics and Leow's vision and his boutique understanding on how to break down each opposition presented to him. He has done more homework than other managers.

    Schweinsteiger not worth £20m but Carrick is sold for £18m? Lol.

  • Wilhelm0 Wilhelm0

    5 Jul 2010, 9:19AM

    If Messi wants to become player of a WC-tournament, he has to get a Spanish passport first.

    Without his companions from Barca beside him, his value diminuishes dramatically.

    And congrats to Joachim Löw. Without any player from EPL, La Liga and Seria A he composed a at times beautiful an efficiently playing squad. (Apparently also due to the fact that no 'superstar' in the team will interfere against his concepts).

  • Gloop Gloop

    5 Jul 2010, 9:19AM

    Germany do not have a "world class player" if by that you mean a superstar who can command a 20-30 million pound fee

    You reckon Bayern would let Schweinsteiger for less than £20m? Or Werder Bremen let Ozil go for less than £20m?

  • doubleOdutch doubleOdutch

    5 Jul 2010, 9:23AM

    there isnt one english player that outclasses his german collegue on that same position.not even Rooney. he isnt half the striker Klose is.And with Thomas Muller the germans have a great new tallent in attack. i cant understand why some people even try to compare the 2 teams?

  • ScythianNick ScythianNick

    5 Jul 2010, 9:23AM

    conanthebarbarian said:

    No manager of a top European club will be taking Boateng over Ashley Cole, Friedrich or Mertesacker over Terry or Khedira, Schweinsteiger and Özil over Gerrard or Lampard.

    I've just recreated it here so everyone can laugh at conanthebarbarian. Especially the Khedira, Schweinsteiger, Özil vs Gerrard and Lampard bit. Very droll, just the kind of Monday morning bellylaugh I think we all need.

    Seriously though, I'd think every manager of a top club would do well to look at Khedira, Schweinsteiger and Özil. Not only are they at least 5 years younger, than the increasingly-apparently-aging English players mentioned they're all improving and already are easily as good as if not better *team* players. No top club's going to sign Gerrard or Lampard to be their star player, they've got too few years left of their career and aren't high enough quality. Khedira, Schweinsteiger and Özil, now. Well, they'd improve almost any team.

  • Xenakis Xenakis

    5 Jul 2010, 9:25AM

    conanthebarbarian, you seem to be typical of the deluded English fan/pundit/journo pre-this World Cup. What this World Cup appeared to show is that lots of the big name English players are now over the hill and past their best. This certainly applies to Terry, Gerrard and maybe Lampard too. But the cult of personality is so great over there that an injured Beckham was even brought to the tournament. You're being blinded by the superstar name and not what they contribute on the pitch in an England shirt which explains why two marauding creative midfielders like Lampard and Gerrard still appear on-field at the same time.

  • Gloop Gloop

    5 Jul 2010, 9:26AM

    World class isn't defined by how much you're sold for. English players are overpriced, but sadly they are very rarely world class.

    Totally agree, I was just pointing out at least 2 players in the German team that would go for over £20m. Also, considering the age of a lot of them I imagine there will be a good few more in the next few years.

  • saintkiwi saintkiwi

    5 Jul 2010, 9:26AM

    So after the abysmal failure of the senior side we all more or less agree that England need new faces, an investment in youth, yes? The Premier League clubs response? A refusal to release players for the U19 Euros as it would disrupt their PRE-SEASON games. And a 25mill Chelsea bid for Schweinsteiger. Brilliant.

  • Yuppie Yuppie

    5 Jul 2010, 9:28AM

    Totally agree, I was just pointing out at least 2 players in the German team that would go for over £20m. Also, considering the age of a lot of them I imagine there will be a good few more in the next few years.

    Yeah agreed.

    They wouldn't go for stupid money because they play in the Bundesliga and they do not suffer the ghastly sydnrome of being overpriced like the majority of English players.

    Imagine how much they would be valued at if they were English.

  • Kueste Kueste

    5 Jul 2010, 9:29AM

    I think, the team-vs.-individual-dualism is too simplistic. One has to think this relation more dialectical. You need great individuals for for a certain system, and you need a great system for certain individuals. Schweinsteiger, Özil, Lahm and Müller a for sure world-class individual players in the system Löw choosed, and the system is world-class for the individials Löw choosed.

  • HubbleWatch HubbleWatch

    5 Jul 2010, 9:29AM

    All this arguing of which players are World Class and and which are not will be put to bed in a few weeks with the return of the EPL. Then the pundits on Sky Sports and MOTD will tell me who is World Class and I believe every word they say.

    After all it is the 'Greatest League in the World' and the pundits are only doing their jobs in telling me so.

  • lovingu lovingu

    5 Jul 2010, 9:30AM

    dhgofhernehill
    5 Jul 2010, 9:06AM:

    Any sign of Magnum? The Mick Jagger of this here parish! Come on, Magnum ... come on out of your kennel, it's time to be chastened.

    The last time i saw Magnum he had an Argentina jersey on.

    Carrick was mentioned above, which might bring Ronald20 out of his lair.

    I'll mention Beckham, which might arouse Marsman.

    Come on, lads - fill up cups full with your silky satire!

    gg

  • Wolven Wolven

    5 Jul 2010, 9:34AM

    @yuppie

    Yeah I know, but that's the thing, I think the speculation of 'how many english players would make it into the german team' and vice versa is pointless.

    We just don't know... You could put Rooney in place of Klose and he might perform better than he did for England, he might perform worse... we just can't say.

    ----------

    I think it is better to judge the overall team performance rather than on individual players do you know what I mean? I think players can be judged based on their shot/pass/freekick accuracy, on their movement and skill etc but I think a lot of people hype players way too much, then we have players thinking they're the best and the deserve more etc which isn't a good attitude to have as a player.

    Had Ballack been in the German team we don't know how they would've performed because it only takes one player. One poor attitude you know? One john terry to sel-destruct the English defence, one Melo to get himself sent off, one Evra to lead a squad off training.

    Also the term World Class is so ambiguous... can anyone here even tell me what it means? Surely all of the teams in the World cup including the players are 'World Class,' surely a world class player is not judged only on the salary or the cost of the transfer... I think everyone has a different opinion on what World Class is, really, so what's the point in using the term?

    I'd like to say that Rooney is 'World class' because of his excellent form for Man Utd, but is he world class after his performance this world cup?

  • conanthebarbarian conanthebarbarian

    5 Jul 2010, 9:36AM

    Yuppie et al.

    Eh? Are you being serious?

    Schweinsteiger and Ozil are far superior to Gerrard and Lampard. If you watched more than Premiership highlights and the odd Bundesliga game, you would see this. And Mertersacker not as good as Terry? That is the utter rubbish sprouted out the likes of Shearer and Lineker.

    I would not disagree that as a team Germany are by far the best, but if you are trying to defend England because of that then you are severly deluded.

    They also play as a team because of great tactics and Leow's vision and his boutique understanding on how to break down each opposition presented to him. He has done more homework than other managers.

    Schweinsteiger not worth £20m but Carrick is sold for £18m? Lol.

    I watch (and attend!) more Bundesliga games than you I'll wager - I live in Germany. I support Bayern. I watch what used to be called the big 4 in the EPL every week (as they're shown on German Sky).

    You may laugh at what I stated. But the clubs paying the wages make other decisions. That is my only point. Would Chelsea pay Lampard what they do if they thought Schweinsteiger or Özil were better? Are they going to buy either of them now? I realise you are fully on the bandwagon. All England players are overpaid crap. Enjoy the ride. Chelsea are paying Lampard (and Terry for that matter) for a reason. It is more unlikely that they are carrying them as useless passengers than that you are right. Their owner is Russian and their manager is Italian. They have no reason to favour these players. Same accounts for Gerrard. Find a Liverpool fan (or even a manager) who thinks he's overpaid crap. Bar the odd deluded one you won't. Hodgson wants Garrard to stay, not go. Why? Any clues?

    Now I'm not up for saying this makes them the best players out there. I'm just saying open your eyes. Account for the facts of club football rather than riding on the back of that very easy wagon. I may be deluded, but then the whole of club football is with me.

  • Hibernica Hibernica

    5 Jul 2010, 9:37AM

    England players with enough ability to make it into the German team: Rooney.

    England players showing enough form in this World Cup to make it ito the German team: None.

  • Gloop Gloop

    5 Jul 2010, 9:39AM

    On a slightly different note, before the world cup started I heard a lot of folk saying it was like the night before Christmas as a kid. Does anyone else feel like it’s about 6pm Christmas day as a kid now? The early excitement’s over - it’s still Christmas and that’s good but the pace has slowed, there’s the horrible feeling it’ll all be over soon and it feels like it’s an eternity before the next one comes along.

    At least there’s a birthday (Euro Championships) in between but it’s not quite the same. (Especially if your birthday is 2 days after Christmas, but for the sake of the analogy we’ll all just have to have June birthdays).

  • LongCoffeeBreak LongCoffeeBreak

    5 Jul 2010, 9:40AM

    lovingu
    5 Jul 2010, 9:30AM
    dhgofhernehill
    5 Jul 2010, 9:06AM:

    Any sign of Magnum? The Mick Jagger of this here parish! Come on, Magnum ... come on out of your kennel, it's time to be chastened.

    The last time i saw Magnum he had an Argentina jersey on.

    I reckon he's waiting for his Spain photo to be approved, to tell us he's been following them all along...

  • billysbar billysbar

    5 Jul 2010, 9:40AM

    I would argue that the way to define 'world class' is the way a player/team perform at 'world class' competitions. Let me try think of an example.....oh, what about the World Cup? That competition also, coincidentally, has the word 'world' in its name. Spooky!

    The team that wins that competition must surely be 'world class'. They've beaten the best in the world.

  • Catsunstein Catsunstein

    5 Jul 2010, 9:40AM

    Watching Germany has, for me at this World Cup, been like watching Brazil. They've been brilliant, nothing less, and I am bent double with a mixture of crippling jealousy and admiration for a young team that has buckled its swash and counterpunched with devastating effect all the way to the semis. I'd still like to see how their brand of football works once they've gone a goal down, but with their semi-final against Spain still to come, I might get to find out sooner rather than later provided Del Bosque sees sense and replaces the mis-firing and out of condition Fernando Torres with Febregas. My mouth's already watering.

    Brazil were a second half embarrassment in their quarter final. They completely lost the plot after alloowing the Netherlands back into a game they had dominated, but no matter how much Arjen Robben makes you want to kick him, it's advisable not to. He needs little encouragement to roll about on the floor like he's just been hobbled by Kathy Bates, so stamping on him has to rank as an act of the highest stupidity. And how on earth does FIFA credit Sneijder with the first goal? They really are a useless bunch of Magoos.

    As for Sñr Suarez's shenanigans - his foul was instinctive, and properly punished - I just wish he would shut up about it. Bragging about it makes me feel rather cross that the diving little sod hadn't picked up a collection of yellows that might have removed him from the field rather sooner. Talented lad, but he's got no class, unlike the man to whom he gave Africa's best chance of semi-final glory since they properly arrived on the global stage. Asamoah Gyan has serious stones. To blow such an opportunity and then have the courage to stick Ghana's first shoot out penalty into the top corner? Respect due.

    I suppose this all puts England's travails into perspective. Any one of these quarter finalists would have beaten us, and we have some serious thinking to do involving our approach to the national game, from grass roots up.

    And finally, did anyone else hear Craig Johnston (he of the Predator Boot and 80s Liverpool double winners) - a man whose views on sports science are worth listening to - slating the Jabulani on TalkSport? He called it a disgrace, and I suspect that regardless of this competition's winner, we're going to be hearing a lot more about this scandalous excuse for a ball once the dust has settled and there's no more contracual need for SA2010 promotion.

  • conanthebarbarian conanthebarbarian

    5 Jul 2010, 9:40AM

    doubleOdutch

    there isnt one english player that outclasses his german collegue on that same position.not even Rooney. he isnt half the striker Klose is.

    According to Louis van Gaal Klose isn't half the player Ivica Olic is - which is why Olic plays and Klose warms his arse. Every game. Klose has 51 goals for Germany (I think), a better record than Sir Bobby Charlton in International football. He is tied (again, I think) with Gerd Muller all-time in world cups. So why does his club manager park his arse on the bench every game in favour of the hard working Olic? Because Klose is "world class"?

  • billysbar billysbar

    5 Jul 2010, 9:46AM

    The team that wins that competition must surely be 'world class'. They've beaten the best in the world.

    George Best anyone?

    Sorry, i wil clarify. I don't mean all world class players ever, dead or alive. That would be illogical on many levels. There would be more than 11 in the team for example.

  • Wolven Wolven

    5 Jul 2010, 9:47AM

    @Kueste

    I think, the team-vs.-individual-dualism is too simplistic. One has to think this relation more dialectical. You need great individuals for for a certain system, and you need a great system for certain individuals. Schweinsteiger, Özil, Lahm and Müller a for sure world-class individual players in the system Löw choosed, and the system is world-class for the individials Löw choosed.

    I agree with this.

    I also think that what makes a great player is the mentality. Passing, shooting etc these are obviously required for a player to be good, but for a player to be great requires skill, spirit, the right mentality.

    Was it Muller or Lahm who said that England has too many chiefs and not enough indians? I totally agree... the mentality isn't right.

    In the Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea etc systems, these players can perform at their best, but because they are idolised and put on a pedestal for their clubs, they bring that mentality, which is wrong, to the National team.

    I love England but our players need to realize that they are nobodies when they come to the national team, not to say they shouldn't believe in themselves and have confidence but they need to learn they place in the team dynamic and play it, they need to work together and support each other in that sense... everyone wants to be a rooney, a goal scorer, but they need to realize that they can't be.

    Everyone loves the person who scores the goals, they are worshipped... but we need to support the other players for their role in the team as well.

  • Gloop Gloop

    5 Jul 2010, 9:48AM

    conanthebarbarian - There are other factors at play here though, English clubs - which Chelsea are no matter who their manager or owner is - generally want to have some sort of English representation in the team. There are very few English players good enough to play at top clubs which is why those that are good enough are so ridiculously over-valued.

    Even Arsenal who are almost entirely full of foreign players punted £16m on Walcott - do you seriously think if Walcott wasn't English they would have done that?

    And if you want an example of how cash paid doesn't always equal talent just look at Yaya Toure, a good player no doubt but worth the cash Man City are paying him? Not a chance. Cash paid does not necessarily equal talent.

  • Yuppie Yuppie

    5 Jul 2010, 9:49AM

    You may laugh at what I stated. But the clubs paying the wages make other decisions. That is my only point. Would Chelsea pay Lampard what they do if they thought Schweinsteiger or Özil were better?
    Well lets be honest, Chelsea have been linked to numerous players like Schweinsteiger a couple of months ago, they’re always stated as wanting Kaka, Pato etc. They bring in Ballack and others. Lampard’s agent will also ensure that his contract and wages meet his market value and his asset value to the club, the shirts he sells and his exterior marketing and branding. Lampard is a marketing tool because he’s an articulate English player, one of few, and UK companies love to exploit guys this as being ‘heroes’ for kids.
    Are they going to buy either of them now?
    Essien & Schweinsteiger in central Midfield would be pretty epic.
    I realise you are fully on the bandwagon.
    What bandwagon? I’ve been saying this for years. If people are saying that English players are overrated I can assure you it isn’t a bandwagon, it is about time.
    Chelsea are paying Lampard (and Terry for that matter) for a reason. It is more unlikely that they are carrying them as useless passengers than that you are right. Their owner is Russian and their manager is Italian. They have no reason to favour these players.
    Chelsea play at their best when they build the midfield around Lampard’s mistakes. His best three traits are backwards passing, free kicks (which oddly take a lot of deflections) and corners. Sure he can play the odd good through ball if given a lot of time and space, but the best players can do this all the time.
    Same accounts for Gerrard. Find a Liverpool fan (or even a manager) who thinks he's overpaid crap. Bar the odd deluded one you won't. Hodgson wants Garrard to stay, not go. Why? Any clues?
    The same reason outlined in the first paragraph. He is made out to be a hero to them, but he is extremely inept at passing, tackling, reading the ball, his movement and he is tactically ill-disciplined.

  • mwasereboys mwasereboys

    5 Jul 2010, 9:50AM

    magnum and me bedded down together on the sands last night. In a manly way. He packed up his bedroll this morning and looked me in the eye. I knew that the time alone in the desert had had a cathartic and purifying effect on him, but there was still pain etched into every line of that sadly mutilated face.

    "I did what I could for them, didn't I? Rousing the country from its lethargy, almost single handedly. And that half-time talk after Lamps' goal was chalked off? I did try didn't I"

    I looked up to tell him that yes, he had tried. No man, however bitterly treated by fate, could have done more.

    But he was already making his way into the desert, slowly, alone.

  • Yuppie Yuppie

    5 Jul 2010, 9:51AM

    According to Louis van Gaal Klose isn't half the player Ivica Olic is - which is why Olic plays and Klose warms his arse. Every game. Klose has 51 goals for Germany (I think), a better record than Sir Bobby Charlton in International football. He is tied (again, I think) with Gerd Muller all-time in world cups. So why does his club manager park his arse on the bench every game in favour of the hard working Olic? Because Klose is "world class"?

    The same Louis Van Gaal who didn't think Riquelme is world class?

  • MarcoLondon MarcoLondon

    5 Jul 2010, 9:51AM

    Maybe they will not win the World Cup....

    maybe they ll loose to Spain

    but Germany 2010 has to be the best team ever to play in a World Cup

    (shame press, pundits , so-called football experts only cos they write on a blog seems to only have eyes for brazil brazil brazil)

  • nursenurse nursenurse

    5 Jul 2010, 9:52AM

    conanthebarbarian
    5 Jul 2010, 9:11AM

    Germany do not have a "world class player" if by that you mean a superstar who can command a 20-30 million pound fee. Not one. And I say good for them. Their reliance on "team" is their great strength and it will serve them well. I think they are the best team at this world cup by far. But this doesn't make them all superstars or individuals that the top clubs and managers will be rushing to get hold of. Follow their careers. See who is wanted, chased. See who the big money gets laid down for by the people paid to get success in the club game.

    I agree, and if I may I refer the honourable gentleman to my comment on Saturday.

  • conanthebarbarian conanthebarbarian

    5 Jul 2010, 9:53AM

    Gloop

    And if you want an example of how cash paid doesn't always equal talent just look at Yaya Toure, a good player no doubt but worth the cash Man City are paying him? Not a chance. Cash paid does not necessarily equal talent.

    Ex-Barcelona. They're all superstars aren't they? Fair enough what you say. But Toure isn't English and it's the suggestion of many that being over-priced (which, of course, reflects the value of the player) is the special reserve of English players. Man City have overpaid on a consistent basis since the Sheikh rolled up as they bludgeon their way to a glorious 5th placed finish.

    One thing I will see is you don't see many English players play abroad. Beckham, Macmanaman, Waddle. Can't think of many more.

  • MarcoLondon MarcoLondon

    5 Jul 2010, 9:53AM

    Suarez did not cheat...

    he used intelligence....

    every time you commit a foul you choose between stopping the play or allowing the play to carry on...pondering the two outcome

    Suarrez is my hero!!!

  • Meylan1158 Meylan1158

    5 Jul 2010, 9:53AM

    Conanthe barbarian - BEFORE the World Cup started there were many saying that the Bundesliga was Europe's most attractive league and that the young players coming through were superb. Granted not much of it got into the UK tabloids. However you would have to be a blind bigot to say that no German players would get into the England team - even before the WC started. Ozil, Badstuber, Mueller and Schweinsteiger had all had great seasons.

    Would any England players get into the German team? Doubtful. Cole.A possibly, Rooney on pre WC form, and maybe Cole.J.

    I think the injuries that wiped out the spine of the proposed German team was a blessing in disguise - they had no choice but to throw in the kids. And how well they have done. Beautiful football, easily the best of the WC so far.

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