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Afghanistan: the wait for talks to start

For military and political leaders, the only question now is when negotiations with the enemy open

'We need to get the job done and bring our troops home," the prime minister told the House of Commons today. A day earlier, the head of the army said talks with Taliban leaders could begin "pretty soon". Officials are anxiously trying to downplay these comments from David Cameron and General Sir David Richards. But the interventions are hugely significant, for they go the heart of how Britain's military presence in Afghanistan is justified – namely, to prevent Afghanistan becoming a safe haven to terrorists who threaten Britain's national security, however long that takes.

Asked at the Toronto G8 summit if he wanted British forces home before a 2015 election, Cameron said: "I want that to happen, make no mistake about it. We can't be there for another five years, having been there for nine years already." Two days later, Richards observed: "If you look at any counter-insurgency campaign … there's always been a point at which you start to negotiate with each other, probably through proxies in the first instance, and I don't know when that will happen." It was important not to give the impression Britain was "giving up" in Afghanistan, he added.

British troops and development workers in Helmand do not seem to be giving up. Brigadier George Norton, deputy commander of 30,000 US and UK troops in Helmand, said the other day that his troops were determined to achieve the "results necessary" on the way to "irreversible progress".

Military commanders say the key to Nato's counter-insurgency doctrine is "strategic patience". Yet Cameron and his defence secretary, Liam Fox, make it abundantly clear they are far from patient about the lack of progress in Afghanistan. It is equally clear that the timetable for troop withdrawal is dictated by politics back home.

There is no military solution, Britain's generals and their political masters agree. The only question is when to talk to the enemy. The smartest generals, including Sir Graeme Lamb, former adviser to sacked General Stanley McChrystal, and smartest diplomats – notably Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles, Britain's special envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan, who has just resigned – believe the time to talk to the Taliban is now. That view is shared by MI6, which has long advocated talking to the enemy, whoever it may be.

In the Afghan context that also means talking to Pakistan's intelligence agency, the ISI – whose head, General Shuja Pasha, is having talks with Afghan president Hamid Karzai and with the Haqqani Pakistan-based insurgents who have links to al-Qaida. It also means trying to calm down Afghanistan's Tajiks – a minority community in the country but a majority in the Afghan national army – worried about the consequences for them of a deal with the Taliban.

As they try to play down the Richards and Cameron interventions, British officials insist, as they always have, that any withdrawal of troops will be "conditions-based". That criterion is becoming more and more flexible as expectations are lowered and are now described as an Afghanistan "good enough".

That, they say, means getting an Afghan army and police force sufficiently large and adequately trained to provide security in the Taliban strongholds of Helmand and Kandahar. Yet British commanders say one of the main reasons insurgents give for joining the Taliban is the corrupt nature of the Afghan police. And one of the main reasons why locals do not trust foreign troops is because they suspect they will be gone before their security is assured. British troops may be providing a palliative. The question is, is that worth fighting and dying for?


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  • WeAreTheWorld WeAreTheWorld

    28 Jun 2010, 9:36PM

    The question is, is that worth fighting and dying for?

    That's a very good question. Certainly not so that Afghan women can go to school or have human rights. It's not our problem.

    However, teaching Afghans that there will be severe consequences if they provide aid to those who attack us is a real lesson.

    Finding Bin Laden would be good.

  • Exodus20 Exodus20

    28 Jun 2010, 9:38PM

    We are poor because we are in debt, big debt. Those in debt must always evaluate risks and returns. So, what's the £-balance of our invovlement in Afganistan?

  • sneekyboy sneekyboy

    28 Jun 2010, 9:48PM

    For military and political leaders, the only question now is when negotiations with the enemy open

    ISAF ENVOY:-

    We'll give up on trying to destroy your opium fields if you give up on degrading women and treating them as no better than slaves or possessions.

    We'll give up trying to educate the young if you give up providing bases for extremism, funded by drug money aiming to implement a Jihad against the west.

    We'll give up letting people watch T.V if you give up beheading everyone and anyone that disagrees with you.

    We'll give up on trying to improve the lives of the people in Afghanistan if you give up trying to end them.

    We'll give up on winning if you give up on violence.

    Well, what do you think?

    TALIBAN ENVOY:-

    No, your terms are nothing but Western Decadence

    DEATH TO THE INFIDEL!

  • alab4ster alab4ster

    28 Jun 2010, 9:53PM

    sneekyboy

    We'll give up on trying to destroy your opium fields if you give up on degrading women and treating them as no better than slaves or possessions.

    What the hell are you on about? Opium production virtually ceased under the Taliban and has increased massively since the invasion. Get your facts right before you start spouting nonsense.

  • Wyrdtimes Wyrdtimes

    28 Jun 2010, 10:07PM

    This is a lose lose situation. Time for different approach.

    How about we start buying the opium?

    Establishing profitable relations with the farmers.
    Selling the thing that grows best in Afghanistan.
    Cutting the supply of heroin globally.
    Cutting funds and recruits to the Taliban
    Solving the world shortage in opiates.
    Making money to build infrastructure and schools.
    Enabling a highly profitable future mining industry.
    The prosperity of which will beat the option of radical Islam hands down.

    The answer to Afghanistan is there - all it takes is a new approach. But we need leaders capable of realising that the drugs bad bromide is nonsense.

    It's not as if it would be the first time we were involved in the opium trade would it? This time it could have a major beneficial effect - bringing prosperity to Afghanistan.

  • easterman easterman

    28 Jun 2010, 10:10PM

    Jaw-jaw. Not a bother. Just get the oil men who were treating the Taliban to 5 star hotels in Texas just over a decade ago to act as go-betweens. They are old pals.

    12/14/1997

    Oil barons court Taliban in Texas By Caroline Lees

    THE Taliban, Afghanistan's Islamic fundamentalist army, is about to sign a �2 billion contract with an American oil company to build a pipeline across the war-torn country.

    The Islamic warriors appear to have been persuaded to close the deal, not through delicate negotiation but by old-fashioned Texan hospitality. Last week Unocal, the Houston-based company bidding to build the 876-mile pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan, invited the Taliban to visit them in Texas. Dressed in traditional salwar khameez, Afghan waistcoats and loose, black turbans, the high-ranking delegation was given VIP treatment during the four-day stay.

    The Taliban ministers and their advisers stayed in a five-star hotel and were chauffeured in a company minibus. Their only requests were to visit Houston's zoo, the Nasa space centre and Omaha's Super Target discount store to buy stockings, toothpaste, combs and soap.

    No clamour for democracy or girl's schools back then. Negotiations for that pipeline to the booty in the Stans are clearly about to be resumed. If I was related to a dead/maimed squaddie I would not be impressed.

  • stevehill stevehill

    28 Jun 2010, 10:19PM

    Contributor Contributor

    the only question now is when negotiations with the enemy open

    They are not "the enemy". We've ended up self appointed umpires in some other country's civil war, having chosen which side we prefer.

    The only question now is how we bring our surviving troops home and get out of an insoluble cock-up of G W Bush's making.

  • Spatial Spatial

    28 Jun 2010, 10:23PM

    .
    altruistic motives for the presence of NATO troops in Afghanistan?

    On September 16, the New York Times reported that the U.S. has demanded that Pakistan cut off food aid to Afghanistan.

    That had already been hinted before, but here it was stated flat out.

    Among other demands Washington issued to Pakistan, it also "demanded…the elimination of truck convoys that provide much of the food and other supplies to Afghanistan’s civilian population" —the food that is keeping probably millions of people just this side of starvation (John Burns, Islamabad, NYT).

    What does that mean?

    That means that unknown numbers of people, maybe millions, of starving Afghans will die.

    Are these Taliban?

    No, they’re victims of the Taliban. Many of them are internal refugees kept from leaving. But here’s a statement saying, OK, let’s proceed to kill unknown numbers, maybe millions, of starving Afghans who are victims of the Taliban

    http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/200111--02.htm
    .

  • KevinNevada KevinNevada

    28 Jun 2010, 10:26PM

    Wyrdtimes:
    brilliant suggestion, I've been saying the same on US blogs for a while now.
    The worst day the Outift ever suffered in the US was the day Prohibition ended in 1933. Within a few years, presto chango, marijuana and cocaine and then other drugs were outlawed for the first time. Now the 'WOD is out of control.

    ***
    alab4ster:
    To your claim:

    Opium production virtually ceased under the Taliban

    Do you have a factual source for that? I've seen accounts that the Taliban used opium - sold to outsiders - as a major source for their revenue, when they controlled the country.
    They were death, literally on anyone using drugs inside Afghanistan, but perfectly willing to sell the stuff to infidels.
    This is one of several reasons why most of the Islamic nations refused to recognize the Talibs as a legitimate government. Only Pakistan maintained a diplomatic mission in Kabul during that time, at the request of the rest of the world. (Someone has to be available.)

  • david119 david119

    28 Jun 2010, 10:37PM

    The "terrorists who threaten Britain's national security" would be much less likely to do so if we stopped invading other people's countries and giving uncritical support to Israel.

    In any case Saudi Arabia and Pakistan threaten "Britain's national security" much more than Afghanistan and Iraq so when are we going to invade those countries ?

    Not at all of course because Pakistan has nuclear weapons and Saudi Arabia is supposedly an ally despite funding the very Madrasas that ferment Islamic extremism.

    The war in Afghanistan is unwinnable, centuries of failed invasions should have taught us that.

    How many British soldiers have to be killed and maimed before we face reality ?

  • Korolyov Korolyov

    28 Jun 2010, 10:40PM

    The question is not to talk or not to talk. The talking has started a long time ago.

    US Confirms Secret Talks With Taliban

    Mullah Omar's offer to the Yanks also public knowledge: Get out and we'll provide "reasonably safe" passage:

    "If you leave our lands, we can arrange for you a reasonable opportunity for your departure,"

    That's a starting offer, of course. Omar will probably offer 100% safe passage if the Yanks show genuine interest. However what the Yanks really want are bases:

    Taliban Decline US Offer Of 6 Provinces for 8 Bases

    "America wants 8 army and air force bases in . . . Mazar-e-Sharif and Badakshan in north, Kandahar in south, Kabul, Herat in west, Jalalabad in northeast and Ghazni and Faryab in central Afghanistan.

    In exchange, the US offered Taliban the governorship of the southern provinces of Kandahar, Zabul, Hilmand and Orazgan as well as the northeastern provinces of Nooristan and Kunar."

    The Talibs might have come up with a counter-offer except the Pakistanis arrested the guy who was going to do that, Mullah Omar's number two Mullah Baradar:

    Afghan officials say Pakistan's arrest of Taliban leader threatens peace talks

    KABUL -- Senior Afghan officials are now criticizing as counterproductive the arrest in Pakistan this year of Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, the No. 2 Taliban official. Its main effect, the Afghan officials say, has been to derail Afghan-led efforts to secure peace talks with the Taliban, making that peace ever more remote.

    How did Pak catch Baradar? Easy, they just walked into the Karachi safehouse where they had been keeping him (and Omar too) and they grabbed him. Why did they do that? Because Pak is playing the "Taliban ambiguity" game, declaring that it doesn't control the Taliban but making plain with its actions that it is, and you better know it:

    LONDON, March 18 (Reuters) - The arrests of senior Afghan Taliban members in Pakistan have stopped most talks between the insurgents and U.N. representatives, the former head of the U.N. mission in Afghanistan said in a BBC interview.

    Asked if he thought Pakistan wanted to end the talks because it wanted to be in control of the process, Eide replied: "I find that interpretation to be probably the right one."

    So it's silly and uninformed to keep repeating "talk to the Taliban." Please stop being silly and uninformed, it's annoying.

  • alab4ster alab4ster

    28 Jun 2010, 10:47PM

    KevinNevada

    From wiki:

    On July 27, 2000, the Taliban again issued a decree banning cultivation.[86] By February 2001, production had been reduced from 12,600 acres (51 km2) to only 17 acres (7 ha).[87] When the Taliban entered North Waziristan in 2003 they immediately banned cultivation and punished those who sold it.........However, with the 2001 expulsion of the Taliban, opium cultivation returned,[89] and by 2005 Afghanistan provided 87% of the world supply, rising to 90% in 2006

  • sneekyboy sneekyboy

    28 Jun 2010, 11:02PM

    @alab4ster

    From wiki:

    During the Taliban rule, Afghanistan saw a bumper opium crop of 4,500 metric tons in 1999,[13]. However, in July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, collaborating with the United Nations to eradicate heroin production in Afghanistan, declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. As a result of this ban, opium poppy cultivation was reduced by 91% from the previous year's estimate of 82,172 hectares. The ban was so effective that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season.

    Yet from 1994 through to 2000 it was ok.

    Now (From Wiki):-

    In 2007, 93% of the opiates on the world market originated in Afghanistan.[1] This amounts to an export value of about $4 billion, with a quarter being earned by opium farmers and the rest going to district officials, insurgents, warlords and drug traffickers.[2]

  • Catostreetcon Catostreetcon

    28 Jun 2010, 11:40PM

    Am I correct in stating that we have come to a point where the military want to start negotiating with those that threaten our security? Is the basis of the negotation you stop threatening our security and we will leave your country? Trouble with that is that the Taliban have never threatened us, so who are we trying to have meaningful talks with?
    This sudden change of tack is rather hard to stomach, particulary if your son has been killed in the line of duty. It is impossible to justify lost lives when some red tabbed son of a bitch says ... " there's always been a point at which you start to negotiate with each other..." as if all this was merely an exercise mimicing a chapter in the standard staff college text book.

  • wotever wotever

    28 Jun 2010, 11:43PM

    There is only one question for both the UK and US Government:
    How can we get out of this mess with any respect?

    The answer is you can't. We will leave Afghanistan with out tails between our legs, no matter how many drums or trumpets we play as we run.
    Best get it over with asap before any more of our armed forces die for nothing but political vanity.

  • amcpartland amcpartland

    28 Jun 2010, 11:47PM

    It has always been quite obvious that this was an unwinnable war. It should never have been started in the first place. Sadly the deal will come too late for the hundreds of British troops killed, the thousands maimed physically and the many thousands maimed mentally, for the rest of their life. It will also be too late for the tens of thousands of innocent Afghans killed in their own country. The families of those British troops killed and those yet to be killed should know that their sons and daughters, boyfriends and husbands died for George Bush and Tony Blair and their personal vanity. There is no issue of principle here; there never was. Of course Bush and Blair will never have seen the splintered bodies and never smelt the burning flesh and never heard the screams of agonising death. Thye are both now too busy capitalising on the deaths of others for their own personal financial gain.

  • lefthalfback lefthalfback

    29 Jun 2010, 12:01AM

    stevehill

    and the guys we are fighting are not only the largest single tribe in Afghanistan but lots of them live in Pakistan too.

    we are thw owrld- I almost cringe at saying it but I agree that there is literally nothing we can do about the plight of Afghan women-at least not in any area controlled by the Taliban.

    It is what it is.

  • myshout myshout

    29 Jun 2010, 12:04AM

    Not when to start but start talking NOW about leaving the place the way we forced ourselves in with no proof of 9/11 - who did it. Ventured all achieved nothing what a way do things un-British way poodling away obeying the will of master.

  • Cabbagehead Cabbagehead

    29 Jun 2010, 12:35AM

    Perhaps it's me but doesn't this situation remind anyone of Northern Ireland where the IRA's main effort was to make things so costly for the government in terms of lives lost and general disruption that they would have no choice but to deal with them? Look how that turned out.
    Afghanistan has been doing badly in terms of general stability for years but for all the high-handed attitudes of the various countries doing what they like should not the first priority be towards the Afghanis themselves? It's a bit difficult to take the moral high ground & tell someone to get lost whilst they are liable to not only murder your family but mutilate them in front of you whilst claiming it's for your own good.
    I fully acknowledge that dealing with such "people" is not ideal reprehensible even but what other sensible option is there? Given also the potential mineral wealth that has been found there needs to be more effort on building a viable alternative to the current environment that is slowing the country's progress.

  • raymonddelauney raymonddelauney

    29 Jun 2010, 12:53AM

    Were we invaded I'd join up in defence of the realm, in a flash.

    To fight in Afghanistan however, i'd want Euan Blair and the Bush twins defusing the IED strewn track in front of me.

  • CircusSteak CircusSteak

    29 Jun 2010, 1:03AM

    The only question is when to talk to the enemy


    who is the enemy?
    the one who is defending their country or the one who started this illegal war with enigmatic evidence of 9/11 and fake wmd?

    If taliban start the talk, they are on the losing side. If the coalition start the talk, the coalition is on the losing side. This is so comical ,after listening to US talk:

    "we will not negotiate with terrorist", well, for taliban, the coalition is the terrorist. Oh well, this comedic war always make me smile with stupidity of some people.

    Btw,just continue this comical war of attrition. Maybe after 30 years later, we will know who the last man standing.

  • mononom23 mononom23

    29 Jun 2010, 1:57AM

    If this is NATO's new position then the Taliban are ready to help. They have repeatedly stated that they are happy to talk as soon as the occupiers leave. The fact that the need for talks is being openly discussed by many supporters of the occupation show that NATO is clearly losing this war. There will, however, be no face-saver.

  • amrit amrit

    29 Jun 2010, 6:26AM

    "For military and political leaders, the only question now is when negotiations with the enemy open"

    There are two things:

    When to talk and what to talk?

    West should talk to other party before it looses life of another soldier.

    What to talk: It is even more simple.

    Guys we leave you alone and you leave us alone.

    Pack up and get out.

  • Firstact Firstact

    29 Jun 2010, 7:12AM

    The Taliban don’t strategically need to negotiate with the US: time is on their side. It took ten years for the Mujahdeen to defeat the USSR. it may take 15 years to defeat the US. Like Vietnam, the US public's weariness with a protracted war will mean an American withdrawal sooner if not later from Afghanistan. The Taliban know this, they know they are winning. They know US history. When enemies are losing they either want to negotiate or find some way to save face and get out quick.

    When and if US forces leave the Taliban will seize power and kill their enemies. There will be a massive refugee crisis. Nuclear-armed Pakistan will be next in line for the islamists. They know the US can do nothing to stop them unless they stay in Afghanistan for decades.

    The 2012 US election will decide the fate of Afghanistan.

  • Bangorstu Bangorstu

    29 Jun 2010, 7:28AM

    alab4ster - the Taliban have no ideological problem with heroin. They did nothing about tis cultivation for years.

    Only when threatened with Iranian military action did they tsart to do anything - the Iranians got sick and tired of the degree of heroin addicition their population suffers, and the rate of casualties their border guards were taking trying to stop the trade.

    One reason why the Iranians offered support for the US invasion in 2001.

    Currently the drug trade is used by the Taliban to raise revenue - they're nowhere near as clean as you seem to believe.

  • urbanegorrila urbanegorrila

    29 Jun 2010, 7:46AM

    Afghanistan remains a stupid war, one started both as an act of vengeance and as an enabler for the subsequent invasion of Iraq.

    Once the Bush administration managed to get the Iraq War under way the occupation of Afghanistan languished, its requirements forgotten because of the higher priority given to its oil-rich neighbour.

    That a majority of our MPs of the time, which included David Cameron, voted against the amendment that could have stopped our participation in Iraq is a crime that people have since tended to explain on the ground of gullibility. Cameron sticks to that story - that he wasn't clever or well-informed enough to spot that Tony Blair might be lying to him, someone whom his party tended to label as liar on a regular basis was suddenly thought by him to be reliable.

    We have to come to terms with the pointless and ill thought out destruction wrought by America, the UK and other in Afghanistan and Iraq but this is very unlikely. Cameron has already said he wants to come up with a narrative, although he has failed to invent a credible one yet, that will make us will feel good about our troops' participation in this war.

    Unfortunately, especially with Cameron as our incompetent PM, the UK will need permission from the US to withdraw from Afghanistan or to take any realistic step that could help that country recover from this stupid war.

  • Self Self

    29 Jun 2010, 7:50AM

    'Of course Bush and Blair will never have seen the splintered bodies and never smelt the burning flesh and never heard the screams of agonising death. Thye are both now too busy capitalising on the deaths of others for their own personal financial gain.'

    Perfectly written. How anybody could vote Labour after the entry into Afghanistan is beyond me. This was surely the most pointless military adventure in history. As for John Reid, who said we would be in and out without a shot being fired, well...there are no words. Except to say that the last shot of the whole stupid farrago is the one that he faces, delivered by an English squaddie.

  • TomHarrison TomHarrison

    29 Jun 2010, 8:03AM

    That view is shared by MI6, which has long advocated talking to the enemy, whoever it may be.

    In the Afghan context that also means talking to Pakistan's intelligence agency, the ISI – whose head

    Do we take it then that the ISI is the enemy?

    The question is, is that worth fighting and dying for?

    No, obviously not

    When the "enemy" knows that you are going to give up in the not too distant future then he holds all the cards. Any agreement would not be worth the paper it is written on.

    As for John Reid, who said we would be in and out without a shot being fired, well...there are no words.

    If we had a proper democracy and real representatives then Blair, Brown, Straw, Reid - and the senior military who failed to warn of the folly and apparently even encouraged this misbegotten enterprise - would certainly be impeached by Parliament.

    But we don't of course

  • thesnufkin thesnufkin

    29 Jun 2010, 8:04AM

    We need to learn the difference between wars and conflicts.

    Wars are relatively brief moments of violence. Conflicts go on for generations until the underlying reasons are resolved.

    Wars are what our army is trained to fight. We were successful in resolving (sort of) the conflict in Northern Ireland only by political action and the willingness of the army to hang around, taking casualties and not doing much else, for 30 odd years whilst this happened.

    Israel has been trying to resolve a conflict by means of war for more than 60 years. They've done very well in the wars, but the conflict is as unresolved as ever.

  • presidio presidio

    29 Jun 2010, 8:14AM

    Ah, we are at the "saving face in defeat" stage of the war. As many here said was absolutely inevitable from the start. Only the morons who decide on these things could not see it. We get the leaders we deserve.

  • presidio presidio

    29 Jun 2010, 8:19AM

    where is that little narcissist war monger Reid goose stepping about these days ? Probably got a safe cushy directorship, while the troops bleed in his no bullets war.

  • hobot hobot

    29 Jun 2010, 8:20AM

    WeAreTheWorld

    However, teaching Afghans that there will be severe consequences if they provide aid to those who attack us is a real lesson.

    Errr...that's the whole point of the article. You've already tried to teach them a lesson and the only result of that has been a humiliating defeat and retreat.

    But don't worry China will take good care of Aghanistan for you.

  • globalgypsy globalgypsy

    29 Jun 2010, 8:34AM

    We do not need to save face. We need the loss of face we richly deserve.

    If we manage to pretend that the whole fiasco has been honourable (but flawed - or whatever excuse is chosen), then we can do it all over again in the future.

    And, Bush, Blair, little Johnny Howard and the rest of the criminals can continue to ponce about on the world stage sucking in money.

    We do not need face saving, we need a humiliating retreat. Then we need a serious examination of how this all came to be.

    Then we need some trials.

  • presidio presidio

    29 Jun 2010, 8:45AM

    Two bankrupt countries fighting over the resources of another bankrupt country, leaving all three absolutely more bankrupt than when it started. Yes, we are ruled by morons.

  • shocking shocking

    29 Jun 2010, 9:26AM

    you are being systematically lied to

    All American Wars are Illegitimate

    The Guardian is a CIA mouthpiece

    www.chomsky.info

    learn what your Govn and The Guardian dont want you to know

    you are being lied to

    this is a scandal...

  • PerMare PerMare

    29 Jun 2010, 10:19AM

    Cameron's five year time frame with regard to the return to the UK of our armed forces is perfectly in line with what General Sir David Richards said about a year ago, when he stated that he believed that the international community will be involved in Afghanistan for the next three decades at least.

    Within the next three years ISAF will no longer field combat troops in Afghanistan, their role will be exclusively one of training. In five years even that role will cease (here Richards and Karzai differ, the latter seems to think that it will be 15 years before the Afghan Security Forces are fully self-sufficient).

    I would like to know who most here think the WE is that Richards is talking about? It is not the UK and it is not the USA, it is the UN and the Afghan Government.

    Perhaps it's me but doesn't this situation remind anyone of Northern Ireland where the IRA's main effort was to make things so costly for the government in terms of lives lost and general disruption that they would have no choice but to deal with them? Look how that turned out.
    - Cabbagehead

    By all means look how that turned out:

    1) The PIRA/INLA fought to a standstill by 1985 when the republican leadership realised that in military terms they were in a stalemate situation(Ask Martin mcGuinness, that was his opinion not mine).

    2) It took the PIRA ten years to convince its rank and file to accept the fact that only a political solution was ever going to be reached.

    3) It took a further 12 years to persuade their membership to disarm and disband.

    4) Are British troops still present in Northern Ireland - Yes they are.

    5) Have the Nationalists signed up to the NI Policing Bill - Yes they have. What does that mean in effect? That for thirty years, having seen 3500 deaths and 36,000 injured the Republican cause has signed up to having a police service that is representative of the population of Northern Ireland (i.e. the majority of officers are protestant and more than likely unionists - well blow me down with a feather what the hell did all those people die for!!!)

    Was that the take on things you meant Cabbage??

    There is no negotiating with the Taliban they have nothing to offer anybody but incompetence, stagnation, ignorance, poverty, starvation, terror, oppression and death (Oddly enough from their own personal experience the vast majority of the population of Afghanistan fully appreciate that).

  • timeforpeace timeforpeace

    29 Jun 2010, 10:23AM

    When the talks begin there are only two conditions that must be met:

    1) That the Taliban banish AlQaeda from Afghanistan.
    As the Taliban only tolerate the terrorists because their country is being occupied by foreign armies when the occupation ends the Taliban would be happy to comply with this condition.

    2) That the Taliban either abolish poppy growing or else sell the harvest to pharmceutical companies for the opium to be used exclusively by hospitals.
    That too is an easy task for the Taliban to achieve as they succeeded in doing so until the occupation began and they have only tolerated the crop to fund the resistance.

    When those to conditions are agreed we will be able to leave the country.

    The idea that we should remain to train up the Afghan army is a preposperous notion because at some point, unless the country is to be run by a military junta, the army will have to hand the policing of the country over to the Afghan police force. As half of the Afghan police force are heroin addicts that is simply not a credible position to take.
    Is David Cameron seriously suggesting that the policing of Afghanistan can or should be managed by smackheads?
    For if he is then David Cameron is a mad man.

  • Norfolk Norfolk

    29 Jun 2010, 10:41AM

    The answer is no. How we ever got involved in a civil war is beyond me and the majority of the British people. How we allow the death and injury of our young men and women in a war we cannot hope to win is also beyond me. We went in to chase the terrorists out and should have got out before the fighting started again. Why can't these people fight their own war? We should declare a victory and leave. This was the advice of an American Senator in the 1960's on the Vietnam war. As soon as the American Army left Vietnam, the civil war resolved itself in two years and the country has been at peace ever since. I only hope the same is true of Afghanistan.

  • Suhasini Suhasini

    29 Jun 2010, 11:41AM

    Contributor Contributor

    The US would leave if it was assured that 9/11 will never be repeated.

    The Taliban & Al Qaida now need to be ready to provide this assurance.

    If Osama is now handed over to the US, before the November byelection, atleast some part of Obama's assurances during the byelection would be that the US have won, and the troops are about to come home.

    Once he is forced to give this assurance in November, its going to be extremely difficult for him to renege on the deal during the December review.

    Osama is just one man. How many people must die for just one man?

    It is time for foreign powers to leave Afghanistan, it is time for Afghanistan to join the rest of the world in the 21st century.

    This is a futile war, the goal is already lost. Not western malicious meddling, nor the Taliban's blind minded obstinance, is going to allow some portions of the world to stay back in the 17th century anymore.

    The conservative honeymoon is over.

    We all have to move forward now. There is no option.

  • zavaell zavaell

    29 Jun 2010, 12:01PM

    Let us not confuse two organisations, the Taliban and Al-Queda. The latter is not fighting a counter-insurgency (although volunteers might be alongside the Taliban), whereas the Taliban are trying to get back into government in order to reinstate their odious regime pre-2001. We are not fighting the Taliban in order to stop terrorism (alt least only indirectly) but in order to bestow a stable democratic government on Afghanistan. People like Simon Jenkins say that we cannot, and should not, be doing that. I disagree: to walk away from Afghanistan now would be to admit that a human-rights abusing group should forcefully take control of the country with all the inhumane treatment of their citizens that we witnessed before the Taliban's fall. We also have to pay for the hubris of Iraq because it was the invasion of that country that gave the Taliban space to regroup.

    NATO should hand over to the UN and allow a more pluralistic international response. As to talking to the Taliban, by all means but it will be complex trying the square the circle of a corrupt President, warlords (who behave little better than the Taliban) and the fundamentalist Taliban.

  • reniroch reniroch

    29 Jun 2010, 1:07PM

    In order to fully understand this conflict properly I feel we need to consult none other than the great JohnRambo.

    Mousa: This is Afghanistan... Alexander the Great try to conquer this country... then Genghis Khan, then the British. Now Russia. But Afghan people fight hard, they never be defeated. Ancient enemy make prayer about these people... you wish to hear?
    Rambo: Um-hum.
    Mousa: Very good. It says, 'May God deliver us from the venom of the Cobra, teeth of the tiger, and the vengeance of the Afghan.' Understand what this means?
    Rambo: That you guys don't take any shit?
    Mousa: Yes... something like this.

    They live there. They will wait. Our troops don't want to live there or wait.

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