The sooner the police are given powers to arrest people because they are shifty-looking the better. I saw several men on the bus this morning that I certainly wouldn't hire as baby-sitters!

Though there is no official definition of looking-shifty, I'd suggest there are some truisms on the subject that can be used as a starting point for a more scientific description.

- Funny eyes
- Moving strangely
- Being suspicious
- Acting French
- Smelling a bit odd
- Dressing wierdly
- Carrying a bomb

Apllied humanely and consistently we should have our world safe and tucked-in for bed in no time.

Well it isn't going to do the security services much good trawling the underground for Cumbrian sheep farmers in flat caps.

Surprise, surprise.

Give the police power and they WILL abuse it. It really is as simple as that. Allow the state to take powers and they WILL be abused.

Insofar as security is concerned I would rather trust the security services and the police to provide that. This will be an unpopular idea on CIF I know. It's the police's and security services job to protect us. That are trained to do it. Thay spend everyday doing it and I personally feel quite safe.

I have a colleague who is white that keeps getting stopped by the police when he is driving and breathalysed. and it is always negative. . It never happens to me. I thought that strange until I got in the car with him to go to the other work site we have. He was an incredibly bad driver, No road sense whatsoever accelerating towards hazards and then suddenly realising we needed to be slowing down and then hitting the brakes very hard. It is no surprise to me now that whenever the police see him driving like that they pull him over and breathalyse him.

Let the police get on and do their job. Follow their suspicions and if that means that you or my colleague at work keep getting stopped then I really don't care. I do not want the police to feel that they can't stop anyone they suspect or want to stop at any time. I want the free to do their job of protecting all of us properly.

Ethnic profiling is stereotyping in action- it is discrimination. The question is, whether or not its justified and what effect it has on people?

Living near the Swiss border it's amazing how regularly customs officials find smugglers- often the very rich with cash, but also kids with drugs, etc. As a foreigner, I'm always conscious, when I don't have my passport, of not having it on me, when I'm near the border. There is, in this sense, a very real threat of being searched- which is an effect, regardless of whether or not a person is actually searched.

It's very hard to tell, what the total effect of this type of policing is-- even if we remove the issue of discrimination-- should criminals be actively pursued or does the active pursuit of crime criminalise otherwise normal people?

A good city is a city with safe and amenable public spaces- where people are able to express themselves and feel comfortable seeing and being seen. Security needs to be incorporated into this more holistic view.

If the police had stopped and searched the murderers of the 25 young people who were stabbed to death in London last year these young people would still be alive.

Starting with Stephen Boachie age 17 on the 1st January 2008, every one deserved to live but the police didn't stop or search any of the attackers on the day they committed murder.

Was it because the knife carriers were black and the police were frightened to search them?

Martin Dinnegan only 14 was chased and stabbed to death in Holloway by four young black males 15, 16 18 and 20 if they had been stopped and search maybe Martin would still be alive.

As someone who has lived in Croydon I see crime it a little bit different to you Claude.

Ethnic profiling is THE most efficient way to prevent acts of terrorism.
Experience of many security services in the world tells us exactly that.
The purpose of terrorism prevention should NOT be dealing with the issue of possible alienation of certain minorities. It should prioritize national and individual security-i.e. to do its job. Period. Communal organizations of various kinds should deal with integration/alienation issues-i.e. to do their job.
Division of labour-it is that simple.

As for the members of the potentially alienated communites-they should learn that they benefit from the terrorism prevention as much as others. Just like I did-being of a slightly darker complexion than an average Brit.

Let us top sulking, moaning, complaining and other forms of humiliatiing attitudes...

Coming through Mile End tube station a few minutes ago with a half smoked spliff in the pocket of my hoodie I was relieved to be waved through the knife arch / sniffer dog set up, very grateful for being middle aged and pink / blotchy skinned.

The men being passed by the knife arch were predominately teens although to be honest I didn't hang around looking, for fear of attracting the sniffer dog's attention.
There will be a rush through Mile End after Friday Prayers later today.

I believe in Europe and I am, happy to vote for Claude and will be doing so again in a few weeks.

I say arrest all foreigners living abroad.

From what I have seen, from Forest Gate in London - Bradford in Yorkshire, there seems to be those growing a long beard as many of the clean shaven young men I used to know now had a chin full of beard.

That the only branch of Islam calling young Islamic men to grow beard is the Taliban and Al-Quida branch, and that most reason given by the new beard growers is the DEFENCE and SOLIDARITY of Islam, is a prove that there is tough times ahead for community relationship.

Me, I always get edgy when I see a man in a blue uniform and a balaclava: what is it that they want?

First, my own personal experience has involved being stopped and searched frequently at airports – with more frequent stops since 9/11 in comparison to my MEP colleagues

Am I meant to care? You're a representative of a party that bases its entire civil liberties position on the idea that people must be measured, watched, controlled and manipulated. The innocent man has nothing to hide, as your friends in Parliament are so fond of reminding us.

I was a victim of 'ethnic profiling' for years.

As an Irish male travelling to and from the UK, and within the UK, I was often stopped, searched, questioned and on four occassions I was detained overnight while my bona fides were checked.

To be honest I didn't like it, but I could also completely understand why it was being done.

Since the IRA stopped it has stopped too.

What was more worrying during that time were the cases of miscarriages of justice. I think that oversight of the British policing and judicial systems is more robust than it was then, and I don't think that there are any blatantly obvious cases of it at the moment.

Dudes, it goes with the territory.

Don't really understand what this article is trying to say - if there's an alternative course of action then no one has ever found it:

If they are interested in cutting knife crime the police will target those people who are more likely to carry it out. Ditto with terrorism.

Can we have the actual fiures on the effectiveness of racial & ethnic profiling?
I think that should be the sole criterion for deciding if the police should do it or not.
Frankly I couldn't care less whether MEP Moraes and some of his constituents feel "they have been unfairly stopped and searched". The police are there primarily to protect us, not to mollycoddle the hurt sensibilities of some MEP who feels he is above the law.

Strangely enough ethnicity of the prison population in this country more or less matches the ethnicity of the prison population.

White British make up around 85% of the country and 83% of the prison population.

Doesnt this fact destroy the only possible reasoning for racial profiling?

And if the excuse is Terrorism then its clearly being used as an excuse for racism. An increase in the number of black people stopped by 322%....??? Come on, how many Black people have been convicted of terrorism in this country? Seriously....

tume tee tum, that should be:

Strangely enough ethnicity of the population in this country more or less matches the ethnicity of the prison population.

Baldock

some more

Walking on the cracks in the Pavement.
Looking at a copper in the wrong way
Possession of an ethnic appearance
Possession of an independent spirit
Questioning the absolute authority of our betters in the police
Not tugging forelock at constable
Refusal to be afraid as directed by superior politician
Voting the wrong way
Breathing

DrJustice

01 May 09, 1:41pm (33 minutes ago)

1.Ethnic profiling is THE most efficient way to prevent acts of terrorism.
Experience of many security services in the world tells us exactly that.

2.The purpose of terrorism prevention should NOT be dealing with the issue of possible alienation of certain minorities.

1 - do you have any evidence of that? I'm not looking for a fight, but I am interested to hear where this comes from. As I understood it, the US secuirty services were racially profiling for years before 9/11, in response to previous Islamic fundamentalist attacks.

2. What if the alienation leads to more violence? That's the reverse of terrorism prevention then, right? You can't have a totally seperated policing and social policy, as the too are clearly closed linked in terms of effects - which brings me onto:

ilikethe80s
Insofar as security is concerned I would rather trust the security services and the police to provide that. This will be an unpopular idea on CIF I know. It's the police's and security services job to protect us. That are trained to do it. Thay spend everyday doing it and I personally feel quite safe.

Generally, the police in this country do a good job. However I don't think that's anything like a reason not to regulate what they do and observe and criticise their behaviour and practises. We're suffering from an economic crisis that may well have been caused by an attitude of "there's a lot of money, the bankers know what they're doing;" for years child abuse in our childrens homes was undetected (Isle of White, various other cases) because there wasn't enough regulation; the baby P case came as a direct failure of monitoring and review processes, as people left the decisions to those that had been "trained" or had "experience".

All public services need to be monitored, otherwise we can't properly judge sucess and failure. The private sector is the same, but it's customers and shareholders who do the monitoring. Why should the police be any different?

>Well it isn't going to do the security services much good trawling the >underground for Cumbrian sheep farmers in flat caps.

Ah.... but that is what they want you to think. Double bluff ...

The police should be arresting Cumbrian sheep farmers, ideal cover .

Anyway, the figures given for rises in stop/search by skin colour are not comparing like with like.

If you compare stop/search figures of urban males aged eighteen to thirty you might have a different picture.

Compared to their urban white counterparts, I would imagine that white people in rural, predominantly white, areas are very rarely stopped at all.

I know that being black = drawing the short straw where the Police are concerned in the UK

That's life.

I'm just peeved at hearing some white people tell me that I need to suck it up and get on with it or read stupid comments about the underworld and men in flatcaps.

The Police don't stop you just because you're driving a nice vehicle.

You've never missed a train because the Police stopped you to check your luggage for stolen belongings while letting other people with different coloured-skin walk past undisturbed.

You don't have to worry about being searched just because the Police can do so.....

Trust the Police? Of course you do. They're more likely to harass those ethnic people. The colour of your skin will protect you 9 times out of 10.

When it doesn't, then you come on Cif and scream blue murder.

You've never missed a train because the Police stopped you

No.

But that was only because I was twenty minutes early.

I had a camera though.

The police really don't like people with cameras.

btw, it's not quoted here but the figure I saw was that the Met carry out something like 90% of all stop and searches. I believe crime exists outside London - what are the other forces doing?

@Ilikedthe80s

You said:

'I do not want the police to feel that they can't stop anyone they suspect or want to stop at any time. I want the[m] free to do their job of protecting all of us properly'.

I think most people want the Police and Security Services to do this, however, racial profile is a fatally flawed process and racist/undiscrimnatory in its application.

@Ilikedthe80s, I do not need to know your ethnic/racial origin but I guess if you were stopped and searched/detained on countless occasions going about your lawful business, simply because you happened to share the ethnic background of those terrorists/criminals that were suddenly causing alarm, then you would not - I suspect - being taking the approach you have today.

For example: many innocent Irish people were arrested on mainland Britain during the '70s and 80s during 'The Troubles'. Speaking with an Irish accent was enough to have you suspected/arrested as being a member of the Provisional IRA. FACT!!! Ditto being a Black/Afro-Caribbean male and the 'moral panic' over the so-called 'Black Mugger' in the '70s, '80s and '90s, etc. Ditto if you are Afro-Caribbean (usually male) and are seen driving a nice, flash, expensive car. Stopped by the Police because it is not possible that you could afford such a vehicle by legal means. Ditto now for anyone who happens to be/look Muslim. Wear traditional Islamic dress and fashion a beard.....surely they must be radical/a terrorist??? And so it goes.

The problem about racial profiling, is that it does not identify those criminals/terror groups that are 'under the radar' and have not drawn particular attention (e.g. Cumbrian sheep farmers in flat caps). You can easily take your eye of the ball but as Donald Rumsfeld once said (oh how I hate quoting him): 'What about the unknown, unknowns?'.

I would not be so bothered if the only downside to being racially profiled was being inconvenienced for ten or so minutes during your busy day, but we ultimately and fatally saw where the logic of this policy can end up. Just ask Jean-Charles De Menezes,.....or on the otherhand......

Racial profiling does not work and it alienates sections of the community. Targetted, intelligence-led, community Policing - for better or worse - is the only way forward.

gingerjon apparently there is very little crme outside of London because the rest of the UK is less ethnically diverse....

joke btw.

radgecore
01 May 09, 2:31pm (17 minutes ago)

Good point about the bankers and how they were trusted. We should all have been on to it and monitoring them. However despite the fact that they cocked it up they still had a better idea of how to do banking properly than the chap on the Clapham omnibus. Said chap that has not the foggiest idea as to what the hell went wrong unless he remembers for a few hours what Robert Peston said on Newsnight,

Yes, It is true that people that generally know what they are doing somethimes get it disasterously wrong. For example Airline pilots. They make mistakes and planes crash and people die. BUT I would still rather the pilot was flying the plane I am on than have the pilot respond to instructions from a show of from the passengers.

Likewise with the police and security. I trust them more than I trust most CIFers and Claude. I am like that with referees by the way. Everyone sitting round watching the incident over and over again from four different angles in slo mo and freeze frame, and then deciding that the ref that saw it once in real time and from where he stood is a complete idiot. That despite the fact that this is the speed he has to make all decisions at and 95% of the time he is right.

@texmc

You said:

'Strangely enough ethnicity of the population in this country more or less matches the ethnicity of the prison population'.

You are wrong and I willl provide the link later from the official stats. From the top of my head, the Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) population of the UK is circa 12%, the current BME prison population for England and Wales (I don't have the stats for Scotland) is 27%.

AlexisdeTocqueville
01 May 09, 2:58pm (6 minutes ago

Alex I am a bit short of time right now but would love a ding dong on all the points you raise. But I'll be very brief and blunt. I really couldn't give a monkeys if people get alienated by the police or airport security stopping them. The police are there for their safety and security as well. The police should operate without fear or favour. That means withiut the fear of someone feeling alienated by being stopped. If they do they do. That is an issue for them. So long as the police are professional and polite then they should be left to use their training and experience to do their job. I expect that on many levels that experience comes out as hunches about people or vehicles which if you analysed it is actually profiling. The main terrorist threat to Britain at the mo is from islamic terrorism. Like One too many said, they aren't looking for Cumbrian Sheep farmers in flat caps are they? The target group is radical islamists. By some quirk of fate in the UK muslims are mostly not white. This is a fact of life. If the police are chasing a suspect that has a ginger beard and you have a ginger beard expect to be stopped. Don't expect the police to ignore your ginger beard in favour of people with blonde hair just in case you feel picked on.

Sorry! Gotta go.

If I were an Islamist terrorist who had noticed police profiling of young bearded, Asian men dressed as 7th century Arabs, I imagine I might try dressing as a clean-shaven, expensive-suited, western businessman whilst going about my busy task of terrorism.
I may also spend some time recruiting white, balding, middle aged men into my cause. If the violent branch of the religion of peace can persuade attractive, healthy young men with everything to live for to blow themselves and others up, I'm sure it can talk round a few old losers from the caucasian community too. Whence profiling then?

Muslim terroists are more likely to come from an Asain background then white. Hence why they are more likely to be stopped and searched then whites.

If the government released the figures showing percentage of crime committed against size of population (heaven knows why they don't) I think there is a strong liklihood that they would show black people on average in London are more likely to commit a crime then white people. This is particular true amongst crimes such as street robbery and weapon carrying (how many black youths as oppossed to white have committed stabbings in London this year?) where stop and search is one of the best prevantative tools.

What do you want the police to do? Start searching old white ladies shopping bags outside Waitrose on a saurday morning.

That truely would be a waste of valuable police resources. And for what? Just to satisfy the pc Brigade that is led by hypicritical idiots such as Keith Vaz.

Ilikethe80s, in case you come back later:

Yes, It is true that people that generally know what they are doing somethimes get it disasterously wrong. For example Airline pilots. They make mistakes and planes crash and people die. BUT I would still rather the pilot was flying the plane I am on than have the pilot respond to instructions from a show of from the passengers.

Airline pilots are breathlised, tested for drug taking, have to be assed to make sure they are not making mistakes etc, etc.

Likewise with the police and security. I trust them more than I trust most CIFers and Claude. I am like that with referees by the way. Everyone sitting round watching the incident over and over again from four different angles in slo mo and freeze frame, and then deciding that the ref that saw it once in real time and from where he stood is a complete idiot. That despite the fact that this is the speed he has to make all decisions at and 95% of the time he is right.

Referees are also assesed by technical commitees, other refs, the FA - and if they do something that fans unianimously disagree with, generally they are repremanded. In my opinion, if the way refs were regulated was more transparent refs would get less hassle and more respect.

No-one is advocating handing over complete control of our police system to laymen. However, I don't see anything wrong with informed debate (in fact I think it's vital) and close monitoring by democraticlly appointed officals, and for this to be worthwhile there's got to be comeback if the methods are found to be uneffective/unethical.

Transparency in methods is a must if this is going to happen.

On a related topic, a guy from round the corner to me, a white muslim convert who fought for the Mujahadeen, was arrested in Pakistan recently for terrorist activities. Assuming the accusation is true (it may well not be) racial profiling wouldn't have picked him out at all.

The police are going to be very busy if the terrorists get the hang of the cunning disguise.

I've been stopped by police and breathlysed, run through the PNC when I was not even driving and in the backseat. Don't ask me why. I was sent on my way with the lovely words, "We'll catch you next time!".

I've been stopped walking home from work and asked questions because I allegedly fit a description. After asking for the description, the only thing I had in common with the suspect was my gender and assumed ethnic identity. I was at least 9 inches and 2-3 body sizes larger than him. But seeing as we all look the same and bear the responsibility for each other I guess that was fine.

I've been singled out as the only person of colour on a returning flight at Heathrow by the sniffer dog made to circle me and no one else on 3 occasions and then questioned like a Mugabe henchman by the immigration official.

I've been stopped I would estimate 50 times in my lifetime by policemen. Rnadomly, of course ;) . On maybe a quarter of those occasions they have enquired about my profession. Not because is that nice. It is just too nice for a guy who looks like me!!

Luckily, I'm a reasonably educated, level headed and reasonable guy who understands issues like racism and history and so I've learnt that expecting uneven treatment by police and similar authority figures has been part of life for people with my skin colour for centuries.

But hey, that's life!

Hang on, missed this:

stop and search is one of the best prevantative tools

The met carry out more stop and seaches than the rest of the country combined. London has a higher rate of knife crime than the rest of the country. How'd you work out it's so effective?

Claude,
The comment from Dr Justice, "Ethnic profiling is THE most efficient way to prevent acts of terrorism." just about somes it all up.

It may make you feel all multi-culti and happy, but when the police start stopping and searching white grannies on their way to bingo, our fight against terrorism and knife crime will be be impaired.

If I have the choice between not being knifed, not being blown up, or upsetting you Claude, then the choice has to be number three.

''Muslim terroists are more likely to come from an Asain background then white. Hence why they are more likely to be stopped and searched then whites.

If the government released the figures showing percentage of crime committed against size of population (heaven knows why they don't) I think there is a strong liklihood that they would show black people on average in London are more likely to commit a crime then white people. This is particular true amongst crimes such as street robbery and weapon carrying (how many black youths as oppossed to white have committed stabbings in London this year?) where stop and search is one of the best prevantative tools.

What do you want the police to do? Start searching old white ladies shopping bags outside Waitrose on a saurday morning.

That truely would be a waste of valuable police resources. And for what? Just to satisfy the pc Brigade that is led by hypicritical idiots such as Keith Vaz.''

@ Bazilbrush - couldn't agree more . Boom Boom !

We're back at this debate again, and the more I read the more exasperated I become.

If knife crime is a a particular problem with young, black males in London, then the Met should stop and search young, black males.

In my life I do not go out to intentionally offend anyone from a minority background, I treat them with the consideration and respect that they show me. I try my best to be aware of actions or words/phrases that cause offence and avoid them - that's called common courtesy. Although the political-correctoids seem to be moving he goalposts every five minutes.

We show consideration for others within our society, and to an extent moderate our behaviour and language accordingly, because we understand that we have to live and let live. When I go to the airport and the Customs man/women wants to see into my bags, I have no problem with that. When I go to the court (where I work) I pass through the security scanner, empty my pockets etc.

I understand that I will be inconvenienced for the (purported) common good of Society. We are all inconvenienced by the fetish-like pursuit of safety and security in our surveillance Society - that is the price we have to pay.

As Breaking3 said:

If the police had stopped and searched the murderers of the 25 young people who were stabbed to death in London last year these young people would still be alive.>

If someone's racial sensibilites are more important than another human beings life, then perhaps they need to re-think their priorities.

The rest of us have to accept the inconcvenience of life for the so-called common good, what makes you so special that you feel you should be exempted ?

01 May 09, 4:16pm (5 minutes ago)

Claude,
The comment from Dr Justice, "Ethnic profiling is THE most efficient way to prevent acts of terrorism." just about somes it all up.

It may make you feel all multi-culti and happy, but when the police start stopping and searching white grannies on their way to bingo, our fight against terrorism and knife crime will be be impaired.

If I have the choice between not being knifed, not being blown up, or upsetting you Claude, then the choice has to be number three.

No - it's a false choice (obviously) between searching grannies or black kids. You could search white kids/young white males as well.

As far as I'm aware, most violent crime commited by black youths is against other black youths, but racial profiling doesn't acknowledge this at all, it just views them as an aggressor. Also, the vast majority of people in the UK are white - are you telling me that in Glasgow, or Newcastle, or Middlesborough that it's not mainly white kids stabbing people?

Also, in terms of terrorism, and this is the real problem with what your saying, is that detaining people based only on their ethnicity (which is what we're talking about) alienates potential sources of information, making members of the community that extremists are more likely to come from far less likely to trust/talk to the police about potential violent offendors.

Not to mention that statement from Dr. Justice doesn't have any evidence provided to back it up.

Sorry to do this again but:

As Breaking3 said:

If the police had stopped and searched the murderers of the 25 young people who were stabbed to death in London last year these young people would still be alive.>

If someone's racial sensibilites are more important than another human beings life, then perhaps they need to re-think their priorities.

Considering the backgrounds of most of them and where they lived, they almost certainly were stopped and searched regularly. It didn't stop them.

And no-one is arguing that a minor offense is more important than a human life - we're looking at whether the measures are counterproductive or not.

@ Claude Moraes

Profiling is sensitive because it raises difficult questions of the balance of collective security and individual liberty.

Get over it. Every time you are stopped and searched, just remember that there's a bearded, besandalled old man cradling a Kalashnikov in a cave somewhere in the Afghan north-west who is entirely to blame, not the underpaid plod who's doing the most thankless job in the world.

Anyway, the answer to the difficult question about individual liberty versus collective security is: Search me!

radgecore, good point. It's simply impossible to check everyone for a knife. Anyway, the problem is more the willingness of some people to be violent-- the disregard for human life-- as they say. You can actually say the same thing about terrorism. In fact it's probably more of a parenting issue than a policing one, when it comes to that.

And as for the poor police, making something like knife carrying their responsibility, well, that's a thankless task. As besides being impossible, they have better things to do, then have to stop every person on the street and frisk them.

Breaking3

If the police had stopped and searched the murderers of the 25 young people who were stabbed to death in London last year these young people would still be alive.

Maybe this is a sentencing issue? Does the punishment fit the crime? The law has to be fair and fairly applied and as far as is possible not arbitrary or discriminatory.

Radgecore

And no-one is arguing that a minor offense is more important than a human life - we're looking at whether the measures are counterproductive or not.

An arguement based on the premise that police "stop and search" tactics are alienating ethnic minority communities ?

You need to re-define counter-productive !!

Why is no one talking about the number of knives confiscated or convictions for weapons possession or other offences etc

How many knives were confiscated and removed from the streets relative to the numbers of people stopped ?

How many convictions for other offences were secured as a result of stop and search ?

Why are we still banging on about racism, offending and alienating ethnic minority communities etc ?

Some fairly fundamental assumptions need to be swept away, and some questions asked ?

If knife/gun crime is a predominantly black issue - how much damage is reducing police activities against that doing to the perception of blacks within non-black groups ?

Now, that is something that is counter-productive. If I perceive every black male as a knife/gun wielding thug because the police are too scared to tackle it without being called "racists". I'll just stay away from black males in that case - it's safer that way.

Why should ethnic minority comunities feel alienated ?

What (or who) is shaping that perception ?

Who's agenda does the hampering of police activities against guns/knives etc actually serve ?

radgecore:
statement from Dr. Justice doesn't have any evidence provided to back it up.

DRJUSTICE: I would like radgecore and whoever is opposed to the idea of ethnic profiling provide the evidence that it does not work.

Thunderchild
Well, the other major factor, is that all this violent crime is being done by males- maybe the cops should start giving lads the chop ..? But seriously, carrying a knife around, it's all pretty macho, isn't it? I mean, the same, apparently disenfranchised female terrorist or whatever, is at home doing the ironing, or watching the television, etc...

So, what do you do with these people, they're uneducated, have no discipline, of course they're unhappy. There are only so many jobs for low-skilled workers in a modern economy, and they're not paid all that well.

Regarding illegal weapons per se- many people have got an illegal firearm at home- often an inheritance. Now strictly speaking an unregistered firearm is a crime- but this isn't a reason to start searching houses. These weapons are in mostly, in law abiding peoples homes and they're simply not a crime issue

AlexisdeTocqueville

You are wrong and I willl provide the link later from the official stats. From the top of my head, the Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) population of the UK is circa 12%, the current BME prison population for England and Wales (I don't have the stats for Scotland) is 27%.

What these statistics here, which prove your wrong?

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBASE/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=7363

White people in jail - 84%
Black people in jail - 11%

?

There's a flip-side to profiling - it's called NOT profiling. And this is what it leads to...

Last year I accompanied a friend in a wheelchair on a flight across the Atlantic. This guy has spinal cancer. His spine is crumbling, it's very delicate and he wears a full body harness.

At Philadelphia Airport we were peeled off by a couple of security guards. Great, I thought, they're going to help us slip past the queue. Couldn't have been more wrong.

Not only did they give us both a full search and dismantle his wheelchair but they insisted my friend remove his body harness. Now this is a delicate job for him. One wrong move and he could literally break his spine.

I explained all this to the guards and produced doctors' letters written especially to notify others of the seriousness of his condition. I showed them a bundle of documents proving we were bona fide tourists on our way to a convention. They could see we were two ordinary English-speaking white blokes with British passports. But they insisted.

If we hadn't been dog tired as well as having an outbound flight to catch shortly, I would have taken this right to the top. In the event we went along with it to avoid winding them up and delaying our journey.

When my friend finally got dressed, I started to let rip. The hard-man guard interrupted with a genuine apology: "I'm very sorry, sir. We have to do this to avoid accusations of favouritism."

That's non-profiling for you. The guard was lucky not to have a corpse on his hands.

When the coppers went for the football hoolies they targetted young white working class men with draconian tactics, restricting their travel and movement.

Worked quite well, didn't it?

@texmc

You claimed and linked:

White people in jail - 84%
Black people in jail - 11%

Oh really? This from The Guardian on 30th April 2009:

'The Justice Ministry figures on the representation of black and ethnic minority people in the criminal justice system showed that little progress had been made in the past year in reducing the ethnic bias in outcomes within the police, courts and prison and probation services.

Black people are still four times more likely to be arrested and less likely to get a caution than a white person. They are more likely to be imprisoned on conviction, and black and minority ethnic groups now account for 27% of the 83,000 prison population in England and Wales'.

I presume the figures are from the Ministry of Justice.

@bulbosaur

You said:

'When the coppers went for the football hoolies they targetted young white working class men with draconian tactics, restricting their travel and movement.

Worked quite well, didn't it?

Not sure how to answer this point but I'll try from several angles.

i) Perhaps there was a time when your average football hooligan even/especially during the 'Casual's Era' and 'The Firms', etc, were white-working class males. However, whilst all football hooligans today are male (I almost certain), it is not true to say that they are White (e.g. West Ham celebrity hooligan, 'Cass') or a middle-class, i.e. if you define class also by one's profession, however, one's profession is not the only indicator but some would argue it is a good one. Anyway, I digress. Here's a link to the the Daily Telegraph, reporting on England football hooligans who were arrested at Euro 2000 in Belgium and Holland:

'Another batch of fans were said to be known to police for non-football offences, such as public order and general offences of violence. The vast bulk of those arrested, were said to be unknown to police. Some returning without passports or papers were asked to give their details, including occupations.

It was suggested that one group arriving at Stansted airport included two barristers and legal clerks. Engineers were also said to have been deported. An NCIS source said it was not yet clear whether they gave false occupation details to police. The Bar Council said last night that if a barrister had been involved in violence he could be disciplined for bringing discredit to the profession'.

Now, whilst intelligence-led Policing has indeed prevented those on Football Banning Orders to attend matches both home and abroad, with regard to foreign travel/matches, profiling or intelligence-led Policing won't catch or work for those whom:

i) Come through the ranks from the Juniour Firms to the adult ranks and are unknown to the Police, whether they have a criminal record or not and

ii) It won't work for those fans who, how can I say, have had one too many alcoholic beverages, get caught up in the moment and want to throw plastic chairs at riot Police in picturesque piazzas, because how can you predict who is going to resort to that type of behaviour. Unless you think we live in a 'M