Right war, right reasons: day Gordon Brown came clean on Iraq

To paraphrase a great British statesman - this inquiry is a waste of time wrapped in a travesty inside a mockery.

Honestly - what do you expect Gordon Brown to say - honestly?

The inquiry is a waste of time because it is being driven by people out of touch with the real world and so it will never produce the result they want - a war crimes trial for Blair and Bush.

So they will try and try again. We will end up with half a dozen such inquries I expect. As with the General Belgrano and Bloody Sunday it will never go away because some people will cling to their hatred to the end.

How could I ever have been so deluded as to believe that it was OK to vote for a political party that had selected Blair and Brown for high office?

I know better now.

Brown's comments were much too mannerly.

The reasons that British troops did not have the right equipment were because the Army, Air Force and Navy have consistently asked for the wrong things over many years. They're still spending billions on kit to fight the Russians - Eurofighter, Nimrod MRA4, Type 23 Frigates - and not to see the real theats the UK faces, and the wars British troops end up fighting. Read the admirable Lewis Page http://www.ercouncil.org/Cost-Effective%20Defence.pdf

They also spend quite a bit on fripperies for officers, like polo. I'd be more convinced about the Armed forces taking things seriously when they bother to curb the extravagant lifestyle of the cavalry regiments.

The reason the forces are geared up to fight the wrong war is that since 1945 this country has been unable to shed the illusion - or should that be delusion? - that it is still a Great Power, and the calendar still reads 3rd August 1914.

The Attlee Gov't was so deluded on the matter that it launched the, er, 'independent' nuclear deterrent.

Eden was so deluded that he slipped into Palmerston Mode and attacked Egypt.

Macmillan realised that it was one thing to have a nuclear bomb, it was something else to be able to deliver one. Enter Polaris.

Thank you, Washington, we owe you one.

No one has been more deluded on this score than Tony Blair.

Only Harold Wilson comes out of it well, since he refused to get involved in the Vietnam quagmire.

Defence policy is driven by politics, PoorHenryJoy.

And illusions.

@PoorHenryJoy
6 Mar 2010, 5:51AM

Are you saying that there is the same kind of scandal waiting to be uncovered within the Armed Forces which we have seen in the expenses claimed by MPs?

If so don't you think you should expose them? I think the public should, and would want, to know.

Also if they are consistently ordering wrong equipment etc why are their political equivalents not on top of this, what is the MOD doing? Rubber stamping every request?

As has been said frequently Gordon Brown has moved so far from the truth and into the kind of doublespeak which politicians employ that democracy under him is fast disappearing. On the one hand he says he knew everything leading up to the war, and then immediately says he was not present at critical meetings. The man is a charlatan of the first order.

How anyone can think otherwise and would even consider giving him their vote for a millisecond is beyond me.

I would like some clarification. When Gordon Brown was talking about 'the new world order we are trying to create', I would like to know what exactly he means by 'new world order' and who 'we' are.

The new world order

I recall a certain German gent who was strong on new world orders.

Blair & Bush had rather a lot in common with him, as a recent report from a Fallujah childrens ward confirmed.

Did Brown believe the 45 minute lie and the doggy dossiers?

If he didn't believe - why did he allow it to be believed by many people?

Why did he go along with the lie?

Why didn't he say we can't afford a war, we have too many problems at home to sort out, like people sleeping in door ways, lack of provision for the mentally/physically ill, lack of care places for the poor elderly, an NHS which needs cleaning up, an education system which is failing society, roads which need repair, council houses which need to be built, unemployed people who need to be retrained, small business which need a life line so that they can employ.

He was so tied up in his own ego drive that he didn't consider the needs of the British people.

The Defence chiefs have said for years they are struggling with money - remember the complaint of soldiers deployed in Iraq unable to have desert camouflage ? Or the lack of body armour ? The use of snatch land rovers and lack of airlift capability has been a complaint for years.

It's worth looking at the Times front page - defence chiefs are calling Brown a liar. Admiral Lord Boyce has actually said Brown deliberately mislead Chilcott.

Basically, like every other Government enquiry it'll come down to who you believe. The enquiry itself has shown itself incapable of cross examining (but then, why else did the Government make certain now barristers were involved ?)

Our Prime Minister is a liar.

Can anyone tell me what the circular object is, that Blair is holding?

WCWBFThis - who can we blame for this?

The US strategy in Iraq has only one element that differentiates it from Vietnam, North Korea, and Cuba and that is that our forces joined in and supported the poor intelligence plan. Search on Groupthink for more information. We were knee jerked into action when we were not ready.

Whilst our Armed Forces had the money and the budget uplift, when they asked for it, we cannot underestimate the lead time needed to resource our troops with the right kit in the right place for the expected.

Clearly in Iraq we also met an element of the unexpected and we were caught out in resourcing our mission properly.

I hope that Gordon Brown is now able to start to close the blame circle that to date has included; Lawyers, UN, Tony Blair, George Bush, our Generals, Civil Servants and the rest, and not forgetting the inquiry team who have supposedly not asked the right questions.

This is a lessons learned Inquiry and even without hindsight when we christened the Iraqi Minister who announced daily on our television - there are no weapons of mass destruction - you will find nothing - the Minister for MisInformation, the symptoms of Groupthink were evident.

Who in the Cabinet listened to Robin Cook?

Who in the inquiry has listened to the reported evidence of the person who debriefed Sadam Hussein - he did intend to restart his Weapons programme - the war might well turn out to be the right war for the right reasons but unless we stop blaming each other we may lose the main lesson to be learned.

We did not go to war on a decision based on facts. And unless we raise our collective game we might not learn the lessons of Iraq that imperiled our superb men and women on the ground.

Intelligence black holes, were we working to the plan of George Bush 1st or 2nd, did the US even think about the what ifs of collapsing Iraq's Government structures, was there anyone with a power base who knew how to win the peace?

Our Generals and our Government need to learn the lessons of how we partner the US succesfully and on the timing of the Iraq intervention we might decide that the best support would have been to say, No - just hang loose Georgie boy, with our long term strategists arguing - why don't we wait for Obama.

Michael Foot may have had his angel moments but he along with others gave us Blair which led to the Iraq war, which in turn has cause many, many deaths and added to the huge debt this country is in and will be in for decades to come, the long term consequence is that we will become a weaker country which is vulnerable to those who want to take advantage of us and exploit us.

The Germans want to be given Corfu because of the Greek debts maybe when we lose our AAA credit rating they will want to be given The Isle of Wight, after all the Labour government are already planning to sell Dover Port to the French.

err, to the Guardian - even the BBC is reporting the Defence Chiefs calling Brown a liar.

Whilst we all know an election is coming up and you want Brown to remain PM censoring the news means you aren't actually doing your job (ie balanced reporting of the news).

Why not just donate to Nu-Labour and be done with it ? Your readers shouldn't have to cross check your reports with other papers to find out what is going on.

dierobdie
6 Mar 2010, 8:53AM
I would like some clarification. When Gordon Brown was talking about 'the new world order we are trying to create', I would like to know what exactly he means by 'new world order' and who 'we' are.

Is it - socially engineering the wealth out of the West into the hands of countries like Africa so that dictators can drive around in big cars with lots of guns and kill each other.

@moveanymountain and other cynics

This enquiry is not a waste of time. It may have weaknesses, and possibly lack rigour at times. It is not a trial but that will come later.

You are wrong to claim that those who wish to see Blair and his lackeys on trial at the Hague are not in touch with the real world.

The real world - with 200,000+ blood-soaked bodies of Iraqi people is the real world that we are in touch with.

If you mean that the real world is where politicians can do what they like and get away with it, then you are cynical and defeatist.

Nixon, Hitler, Mussolini, Karaditch, Malic are all politicians who thought they could get away with it - Look where they are/were.

The crimes of Blair, Hoon, Straw - maybe Brown if he doesn't change his tune and 'fess-up', are too horrific to be swept under the carpet. Fortunately, Blair continues to offend all standards of decency by publishing his money-making memoirs publication. If he wanted to escape prosecution, he'd do better to go into hiding. Instead he continues to remind us of the evil by which he is possessed.

Blair will be tried - It may take some time.

New Labour are beyond contempt. They deserve to be crushed in the polls and their leaders put on trial. If this doesn't happen then the UK should be treated as a political pariah and as an anti-democratic basket case.

TomRainsborough

How could I ever have been so deluded as to believe that it was OK to vote for a political party that had selected Blair and Brown for high office?

Don't worry, you can still be deluded and vote for Cameron and his Offshore Party. They will go from 'don't care' to 'really don't give a fuck' - a vast improvement to consider while they sell off what's left.

ElmerPhudd:

6 Mar 2010, 9:59AM
... They will go from 'don't care' to 'really don't give a fuck' - a vast improvement to consider while they sell off what's left.

What exactly is left to "sell off"?

Whatever your views on Brown it was a very good performance and he was a master of his brief. Sorry to all you Tory ranters who would have loved to see him slip up. But your man is about as substantial as a Caribbean shell company in comparison.

Yes, some of these New Labour reptiles are such good actors that they really would not have been so out of place on the provincial stage or even in a Leni Riefenstahl movie.

A ,good performance you must be joking he was asked yes or no questions and yet he did his usual rambling answer and even when stopped and told they wanted a yes or no question he still went rambling on.

What he said about funding flies in the face of a number of witnesses that said as Chancellor he turned down funding request and just one look at the reruns of our troops embarking with wrong boots and uniforms to fight in Iraq tells it all.

As for decisions by cabinet what Brown told us yesterday shows that this was for the UK a one man war as even Brown as the second highest Minister was not aware of the communications between Blair and Bush in the lead up to war and didnt even know of the pre discussions between Blair and the Lord Chancellor.

What a shower and the Guardian expects to support this bunch again.I expect the only reason is they know that their newspaper is on the rocks once all that lovely public sector advertising is withdrawn.

regards malc

In politics you should never neglect the possibility that you might have to fall back on the truth.

Michael Foot said that. Anyone think Gordo will take it on board? Thought not.

Having nightmares too, Martin?
At this rate Gordon Brown will never get as old as you picture him.

Can we have a thread about Gordon's alleged bald-faced lies to the Inquiry? They're very sparsely reported on in the Guardian.

...or would I be more successful asking for the 249th "Awful Ashcroft" article?

Does anyone find it a tad convenient that both Blair and Brown were 'interrogated' on a Friday?

This way their testomonies are not reported and analysed as much as they would be if they were released, say, on a Monday.

This whole 'enquiry' is a stage-managed show for the public: promising justice, delivering white wash.

This Labour Party is a picture of total corruption. They should be routed at the polls, even though Cameron is feeble as is his party. No organisation that has participated in this criminal, vile business in Iraq deserves another chance. Blair we all know about, it's common knowledge that this appalling individual is a liar and an egotist. Brown lives in another reality, for him he does nothing wrong. Those who decide to vote Labour at the next election will be supporting war criminals and a gang of cowardly hypocrites. It really makes me sick to see these people avoid what they deserve. THIS ENQUIRY IS A TOTAL SHAM. These are the people who run Britain today - think about it. What a vile, deceitful society we live in.

Appearing before his own committee, clearly chosen for its lack of forensic skill, Gordon Brown's outrageous claims that he fully funded our Forces went unchallenged. Later, however, Lord Guthrie, former chief of the defence staff, said this was "simply not true" and other military chiefs dismissed the PM's evidence as "utter nonsense". At an earlier session, Sir Kevin Tebbit, former permanent secretary at the MoD, said Brown's drastic cuts made it impossible to supply sufficient helicopters. This is turn led to the extensive use of the 'mobile coffins' (aka Snatch Land Rovers) and the deaths of so many young soldiers. My son fought with 7 Para in Iraq and I know that their only decent kit was stuff they had bought, borrowed, or stolen from their American allies. I have watched with anguish as the lives of so many of his young comrades have been needlessly destroyed and found the PM's Friday performance beneath contempt.

As for decisions by cabinet what Brown told us yesterday shows that this was for the UK a one man war as even Brown as the second highest Minister was not aware of the communications between Blair and Bush in the lead up to war and didnt even know of the pre discussions between Blair and the Lord Chancellor.

brown would like you to believe that he had no role, but he is in it up to his neck.
as he confesses he was fully aware of the issues and details...and was not interested in the details he didnt know or want to know.

so for the goldsmith advice, all he wanted to know was that it was legal regardless of the robustness of the advice or anything prior to the advice given in cabinet.

for the war all he needed was that iraq had disobeyed the un resolutions and that it was for him to act to enforce un resolutions - not the un.

for him iraq was an aggressor despite he being unable to validate that claim, for him the diplomatic process was not required since it would not give the outcome that he required and so could be over ridden by war.

this is the same man who claimed to uphold international law, who would act against rogue states and who would provide at the request of the israelis a change in our laws to deny the arrest of alleged war criminals.

with such a skewed eye view of reality how does he walk away with so little damning comment from the media?

even though Cameron is feeble as is his party. No organisation that has participated in this criminal, vile business in Iraq deserves another chance.

and yet for the tories they would have done the same with even less claims of wrongdoing by iraq.

the reality is we do the bidding of the usa israeli lobby, the neo cons and israel itself , no party is prepared to stand up for british interests and british sovereignty.

what are they all afraid of .. a mossad hit team?

guardian/falluja-cancer-children-birth-defects

Someone ask Gordie what he proposes to compensate and earn clemency for the birth defects all over war-torn Iraq... you know those people we were supposed to be SAVING.

He probably doesn't give a monkeys, granted.

I see the new reason why we invaded and trashed Iraq is because Saddam was a very naughty boy and ignored all the friendly warnings he's been given by Auntie UN. Nothing to do with WMD or forty five minute threats to Ammagedon.

Err, isn't there then another country we should also be invading and trashing if that is the best Casus Belli that Don Gordeoni can come up with?

MartynInEurope

What exactly is left to "sell off"?

Er, NHS, Royal Mail, education system, any infrastructure that is still publicly owned (not many of them left I know) Oh, and the Beeb.

wotever
6 Mar 2010, 9:26AM

Can anyone tell me what the circular object is, that Blair is holding?

I could be wrong but I take it to be a driving wheel -

- as in Gordon Brown sees his way out of the Iraq war is by claiming that whilst he was a passenger certainly, he wasn't in the driving seat - no, no that was his good friend and ally Tony.

Despicable man, only thing he's good at, in fact I think we could even say he has become an expert at/in is shifting the blame or running away and hiding.

I believe today he's meeting 'our' troops in Afghanistan. I wonder why?

"Not me guv" indeed

@slumpy

Er, NHS, Royal Mail, education system, any infrastructure that is still publicly owned (not many of them left I know) Oh, and the Beeb.

I was going to add Parliament but suddenly realised that it was already owned by private overseas interests and had been for decades.

"Right war, right reasons" . This damns Brown with Bliar, being wrong on both counts.

When will these fraudulent conjurers of phrases, realise that, their statements are immediately suspect by those who have to pay heavily for their preposterous adventures?

No threats
No WMDs
No intelligence
No legality
No Public assent

Chilcot Inquiries should lead to the ICC and The Haig for war criminals.

Triffid100
6 Mar 2010, 9:24AM

It's worth looking at the Times front page - defence chiefs are calling Brown a liar. Admiral Lord Boyce has actually said Brown deliberately mislead Chilcott.

And, of course, the news broke that Brown is in Afghanistan on his usual cringe-making electioneering, announcing new anti-IED vehicles even as he's denied that he to provide them much earlier, as well as the even more vital choppers, or enough ammo to practice. This trip will have been organised to follow on from Brown's turn at the Chilcott inquiry, as he would have anticipated various chiefs of staff going rightly apoplectic at his lies saying that he'd never denied them anything. Brown never saw votes or popularity as chancellor in defence spending and he's never been motivated by anything else. He has lost us (a) lives and (b) our reputation - we were shamefully shambolic in Basra thanks to underfunding.

Our man with the moral compass has long operated on the belief that provided the lie is big and bare faced enough he'll get to survive in the political jungle another 48 hours, the longest horizon Brown looks ahead as one mini-crisis is subsumed in the next one, with the occasional detour to settle scores and grudges).

Basically, like every other Government enquiry it'll come down to who you believe.

Difficult one, that.

Our Prime Minister is a liar.

Well, yes.

gordon brown never told the truth at the chilcot inquiry,brown took away £1.4 billion ment for helicopters to be built to support are troops in iraq and afghanistan,the military commanders said brown underfunded the military,but brown denies it like a liar he his,and brown finds him self on the wrong foot,and many are questioning browns underhanded moves,so gordon brown as flown out to afghanistan to fool the public that he rearly cares for are troops,when the fact is,brown is a very self centered person and what you see is just play acting,

whitworthflange
6 Mar 2010, 10:11AM

Whatever your views on Brown it was a very good performance and he was a master of his brief.

You see what you want to see. The rest of us saw a man who didn't answer the questions. This is an annoyingly common political trait but Brown never answers the question. He comes armed to the BBC studio, or parliament, or the Chilcott inquiry with what he wants to say and uses the silences between the questions to come out with his party piece. When interrupted and asked to answer the question, he just waits, ignores the request, and then proceed.

As for being substantial, how 'substantial' were the Labour opposition in 1997? Office, even when besmirched and ill-used, confers gravitas.

theyislying
6 Mar 2010, 1:21PM

the reality is we do the bidding of the usa israeli lobby, the neo cons and israel itself , no party is prepared to stand up for british interests and british sovereignty.

What you can't understand is that British interests are pretty firmly aligned with the USA, and, by extension, Israel, certainly infinitely more than any other country or group of countries you could mention. Indeed, if we wanted to save a lot of money and abolish the foreign office altogether, going along with whatever those two decided would work pretty well. An alternative would be to do the exact opposite of what the Guardian cif decided, That would work too, indeed, it would be the same thing.

what are they all afraid of .. a mossad hit team?

@ Mossad, a message from a non-Jew. I don't use my passport much. Please feel free.

wotever:

Can anyone tell me what the circular object is, that Blair is holding?

It's a halo.

This enquiry is not a waste of time. It may have weaknesses, and possibly lack rigour at times. It is not a trial but that will come later.

I'd love to see Bush and Bliar put on trial but what on earth do you base your optimism on?

Who's going to conduct this trial? Not the US - the Republicans are set to win big in this year's elections and Obama is likely to be a one-term president. If the Tories win in the upcoming election they won't do it because they would have invaded Iraq on even less of a pretense. The Hague? They haven't got the cojones.

The regrettable fact is that these inquiries are the only "trial" we're ever likely to get, which is why it's so frustrating that events like this are such a pro-forma, perfunctory bit of scripted political theatre.

This is not an enquiry, rather a cosy chat over a cup of tea. It is quite simply, a farce, but then it was set up to be so. Gordon Brown is a man of immense cynicism, a basic lack of courage and an ability to lie and keep a straight face. Why should we be so surpriesd? The whole New Labour project was based on a lie and Brown was central to it. His cynical use of the troops in Afghanistan today, is surely reaching a new low , even for New Labour. This is a man who quite simply will do anything to keep his tenuous grip on power. This is a man without a moral or ethical compass. This is a man with no right to lead a people who are basically honest and decent. Cameron for all his naivety, may just be a better bet and perhaps might just restore a little bit of decency and credibility to British politics.

If the military top brass knew they did not have right equipment to fight long and bloody wars in Iraq and now Afghanistan they should have said so years ago and refused to put the soldiers under their command in unnecessary danger.

Britain isn't being threatened with invasion, it wasn't in 2001 nor was it in 2003.

Yes, he came clean, washing his entrails all over the british public. No apologies for Iraqui deaths, surely an error from this compassionate friend of israel! Yet despite the vainglorious manner a sense of an old order in passing, as tragic as mcmillan but as meaningless as yesterdays breakfast.

The gangster Brown deserves worse than a human depiction if Bliar is left as narcissus in a blood stained mirror. One lied, a million died, the other paid and a million slayed.

Thank you chilcot Enquiry for the moment when Brown came clean.

A Future Fair For All? has compiled a short and snappy dossier explaining why Gordon Brown misrepresented defence funding to the Chilcot inquiry, and what military heads think of it: http://futurefairforall.org/post/430224381/gordon-browns-defence-spending-untruths-to-chilcot

STATEMENT

We?ve been bought and we?ve been sold

by villains clad in grey !

Oh, the lies that we?ve been told

whilst with our lives they play.

Our leaders have not led us !

They used us for their greed !

They have abused and bled us,

cared little for our need.

They say they are decent

but their words are filled with lies !

See events quite recent,

our lives they do despise !

The Two-knee B-liar

with his evil janus grin

played to Groggy Tush?s desire

they perpetrated sin.

Whilst millions die of hunger

to the moon they sent a bomb !

Who is this cruel war-monger ?

Where does he come from ?

49 billion it cost them

but OUR money they spent !

They say they seek for water

but evil their intent !

Secret treaties do they make,

they sign OUR goods away,

the common man they do forsake,

they rob and they betray.

These ?leaders? are NOT our voice,

our voice they do not hear !

Really we do have no choice,

they use the tool of fear !

We wish for help to ascend

and leave this fear behind !

Higher beings, your help please lend

send us leaders kind !!

(Wednesday 03. March 2010, Wezembeek-Oppem)

This enquiry farce reflects the desperate political state we live in. It's further than the gutter - it's in the sewer.

What;s the value of self exoneration. Despite the disaster, they think they did the right thing. Oh that's alright then. Thank the Lord it worked out so well.

I have emailed the Labour Party http://www.labour.org.uk/contact
telling them that Brown's support for the Iraq War
was for me ( a lifelong Labour voter ) the last straw . I'm out.
I hope they are inundated by similar protest